another horse problem

[miss_thenorth]

I know i really should be posting this on BYH, but I'm kinda gun-shy over there, and not reall in the mood...

Okay, so Thunder and Jiggs. I mentioned this briefly in my other post, but I don't see this getting any better.

the horses share a large stall in the barn. It is set up as a run-in type situation, but there is a walkway that is still sheltered and out of the elements. Their grain buckets are in the stall where we feed them a bit of beet pulp at night, plus their minerals.

I noticed a few days ago, that Thunder was not entering the stall to get his grub, and he was acting very submissivley. i had to coax him into the stall to get his grub. He did come in eventually, but if I turned around to tend to the other critters, Jiggs would come over and try to eat Thunder's food. that has happened every night since.

And I have noticed that Thunder has been sleeping in the walk way as opposed to the stall.

Now, new observation today, with a little back up. We feed round bales and use a big bale buddy. sometimes Jiggs has run Thunder off, but Thunder can still get to the bale, so no problems there, really. But, our bales are really big, even for the big bale buddy, so we have to peel a few layers of hay off to fit the bale in the bale buddy. When they have finished the bale, I take what has been peeled off (which has been collected in an atv trailer, and I pitch fork it into a trough that they eat from. We have been doing this for over a year, and have never had problems until just recently. I pitchforked it into the trough today, and Thunder took a step towards it and stopped So I had to pitch him his own pile for him to eat from today.
I have never seen Jiggs show signs of aggression towards thunder, EXCEPT he pinned his ears back today when thunder stepped towards the trough. When I try to intervene, as in go in the stall to get thunder to eat his grain, Jiggs doesn't even twitch an ear.

Now, my question is this: can this behaviour be corrected and if so how. Or will I just have to compensate for a dominant/submissive eating hierarchy.I have researched it to no avail, and I do know there are very knowledgeable horse people here.

YOur help is greatly appreciated.

 

[FarmerChick]

I truly don't think it can be corrected when they are loose in a pasture together.

any and all times I feed hay in separate areas....all horses got their own pile away from each other.

also I would put my horses in their stalls, shut the door, let them eat, go off and clean waterer or do something else for a short time, then come back and open stall doors again. My horses were never locked in unless weather was a monster factor.

I had individual stalls so my horses could walk into whatever stalls they wanted and were usually alone....each horse picked one to spend the night, but of course times when another horse went into the stall wtih that horse and someone came flying out hahaha

it is natural. I doubt you will change it.

 

[Denim Deb]

If you don't have a way to separate them for feeding, tie they up. That's what we do. Not all of the horses in the herd get the same food, and they get different amounts. So, if we don't tie them up, those that get less, and are more dominate will run the others off their feed.

Has there been any change in the herd? (By herd that includes and all animals that may be in the field w/them.) That can trigger a difference in behavior. And, if you're needing to put hay out, don't put it all in one big pile. Instead, have at least 1 per horse, then 1 extra. And, don't have them too close together, but spaced out. That way, it makes it much harder for the more dominate horse to guard all the piles. Even if he tries, eventually, he'll get tired, and will chose just one to eat from.

 

[big brown horse]

Sometimes a simple stock panel put between them will deter that behavior. Then they think, "It is easier to eat what I have over here than to go around the 10 ft panel to bug my friend." This has worked for me in the past when I had just a run-in to feed my horses in.

How big is the run in area by the way? I think you should also have more than one area to feed the excess hay to them.

 

[miss_thenorth]

Has there been any change in the herd?

Yes, I considered this, but am baffled. We got the calf in August, and she went in with the horses right away(after introducing them over the fence for a few days). No issues. then in October, we put the sheep in. No issues.The horses were already used to the sheep over the fence.

Also, the sheep and cow eat from their own hay trough, since they are too small the eat from the bale buddy. I had considered getting an all purpose feeder for all of them to be able eat from, but I wasn't really comforatble with any of my options, so I opted to feed them separately.

So, considering there were herd changes, but months ago, I wasn't sure if that was the issue, since this behaviour has only been present for about the last week.

Any ideas?

 

[patandchickens]

It is quite possible that it is a natural change in herd hierarchy (change in dominance relations, change in health status, change in maturity, and/or one horse just having suddenly *discovered* he can run the other off), exacerbated by the time of year it is. IME they get pretty grumpy and "bored teeth" this time of year, when they have had enough of winter and are being tantalized by spring without actually being given any spring to *graze* on

I would suggest not graining them in the same stall (always dangerous!), but rather put one horse's grain bucket in the stall and the other horse's somewhere else away from the stall (perhaps in front of the barn?), and you hang around to supervise til they are BOTH done eating. You can clean, or rake poo into piles, or whatever.

[e.t.a. - I feed my three their ration balancer pellets while they are loose, about 10-15' away from each other, in fortex pans on the ground; I clean the shed while they're eating and they know better than to try to get into each others' food while I am there! Though if I disappear for even just 20 seconds, the fat white pony either goes and sucks down the old TBs food, or chases the younger TB out of the shed before eating his. He would not DREAM of doing this when I am nearby however so it all works out just fine and is safer as well as easier than tying them]

(Also, do they for sure *need* grain right now? Is it possible that one or both are maybe a bit overfrisky or overmolasses-ed, which would make any social frictions worse?)

As for the hay, I would suggest setting up a second feeding station of loose hay elsewhere, preferably at least 30' from the ones Jiggs wants to use.

No, there is really nothing you can do to change horses' herd hierarchy when they are loose in the pasture, and trying to do so just tends to lead to worse problems.

Good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[valmom]

Spring does seem to trigger a re-shuffling of hierarchy in the herd- in mine, too. When I moved from my last home/barn where I put everyone up in stalls at night to here where we didn't have a barn for the first 3 winters I started feeding round bales and put them under a Coverall type tent to keep the snow and rain off the food, and give the horses a place to stand out of the weather. Feeding was a bear- I was used to giving each horse their own grain and it was no longer possible. So, I cut the grain out except for a handful in buckets tied to the round bale feeder (won't work with the bale buddy, but what about the fence line?). I'd put out one more bucket than I have horses so they could chase each other around the circle of buckets and there was always one for the lowest horse to get to. My rule for feeding- even piles of hay- is one more than the number of horses.

Of course, the easiest way for you might be just to put an eyebolt over each bucket and tie them until they are finished eating.

 

[FarmerChick]

and don't try to get inbetween

I know, been there....thinking you can just say "no" and that horse might not go thru you to get to the other -- hahaha oh, yea, a horse that wants to go after another horse is not thinking about you standing there saying NO LOL

separation is best when feeding any and all horses I think

what critters get along one minute, could severely cause an injury to another in the next minute

 

[miss_thenorth]

Well, glad to see it might be a normal hierarchy type situation. Jiggs has alwasy been the dominant horse, mey he is exerting his power so Thunder, who is now bigger than Jiggs doesnt try any funny stuff. Hopefully it will settle down then after hierarchy is established once again.

(Also, do they for sure *need* grain right now? Is it possible that one or both are maybe a bit overfrisky or overmolasses-ed, which would make any social frictions worse?)

oh, they don't get grain. They get beet pulp, and not alot--just enough to get them used to coming into the barn at night. Since we have a limited amount of pasture, even in the summer we brign them into the paddock area in the evening. Given them grub gets them into a routine. Plus I give them loose minerals. They only get two cups of beet pulp, which when soaked turns out to be about 4 + cups--not alot. It is more for the habit. The cow and sheep get a handful of corn to get them into a habit.

 

[miss_thenorth]

Okay, after pondering your sugestions, we will switch the beet pulp feedings to outside, with the buckets tied to the fence posts. They get a new bale out tonight, so it is just today that I have to fork out hay. and I had to do two piles yesterday. I will do it again today ( but it is sooo muddy blech!)

Thanks so much for your help!!!!! I've never had to deal with this before, so your expertise is really appreciated!!!!!!!