Building methods

[Jaxom]

I posted in another forum that I'm about to move, and am looking for a place to live in a rural area. I hopes is to find either an "in town" house with large lot so I can garden, or even better yet, a small farmette that I can either rent or rent to own. But, I do realize this may not be possible. I'm flexible enough to realize due to various reasons I may end up in an apartment for a year or three.

I'm not meaning to repeat every thing I said in the other thread, but there is one thing that I would like to get some advice or hear comments about.
Should I end up in my less then idea situation where I'm renting an apartment or even a mobile home. Once settled and I want to being saving for that ideal property that I want. This may mean even buying land with no home built on it.

What I'm looking for or would like comments on are taking into concideration all the various building types such as yerts, earthships, common stick framed, concrete dome, shipping container, and so on, is which is most economical?

When I refer to ecomical, there's two things to concider. That actual contruction of. I believe I have the skills to build most, and what skills I don't already have I'm willing to learn, or willing to hire someone to do. The other aspect is once the home is built, what's it going to cost to heat and cool?

My ideal home would be that of a geodesic concrete dome home. But I fear that this will be cost prohibitive for me to build. I don't have the skills to do so, and hiring someone to do it would cost around $140 per sqft for the rough in.

Common stick and frame would be easy enough. Where I'd need help is anything requiring a ladder. And then there's the issue of trying to raise walls be one's self. It can be done, but not too easily.

There are so many things to concider when thinking about building a home. Especially when thinking about doing it yourself. I'm just wondering what other's think or would do?

Thanks,

Jax

 

[patandchickens]

What I'm looking for or would like comments on are taking into concideration all the various building types such as yerts, earthships, common stick framed, concrete dome, shipping container, and so on, is which is most economical?

Actually the first thing you would need to find out is which of those is/are POSSIBLE. Unless you're looking at land located somewhere that has zero building code -- and there are fewer and fewer places like that left -- you will have to find out what the local municipality can or cannot be persuaded to accept (and I mean, persuaded without your spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars on consulting engineer fees and lawyers and so forth). If you know the area you are looking for land in, this is one of the first things to inquire about.

When I refer to ecomical, there's two things to concider. That actual contruction of. I believe I have the skills to build most, and what skills I don't already have I'm willing to learn, or willing to hire someone to do. The other aspect is once the home is built, what's it going to cost to heat and cool?

What a house costs to heat and cool is related more to its size (square footage) and insulation (R-value of walls and ceiling), and to a lesser extent its shape, than to how it's built. I mean, how it's built makes SOME difference, but the biggest way to save money is to build as small as possible and insulate as heavily as possible. End of sentence, period.

When you say "yourself" it sounds like you mean "singlehanded" or nearly so... two important things to consider are the amount of time it will take (can you afford to take most or all of a year off work?) and whether your body is likely to physically hold up. If you read the accounts of people who have literally built their own houses themselves, by themselves, with their own two hands, there is usually an episode where the project is delayed for a month or six months or whatever while they recuperate from a slipped disc or have heart tests or wait to get out over double pneumonia... and that's people who are in good shape to start with.

I am certainly not trying to discourage you from thinking about this, just trying to point out that however spiff and shiny the concepts may seem that you read about in books or see on the Web, the reality is generally a good bit simpler and less glamorous

(Also, these days, with materials costs rising steeply and real-estate prices still quite depressed in many areas, I doubt that it very often makes economic sense to build rather than look for an existing place to *buy*. Although I am sure there is the rare exception here and there)

Good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[hwillm1977]

(Also, these days, with materials costs rising steeply and real-estate prices still quite depressed in many areas, I doubt that it very often makes economic sense to build rather than look for an existing place to *buy*. Although I am sure there is the rare exception here and there)

This is really true... we bought our house as a fixer upper, and although it's not my dream house we're making it worth more money than it started out as to become the down payment on our dream farm... we started in a 40 year old mobile home, now we're in a little farm house with an acre.

Around here you can buy a 5 bed-2bath farmhouse with more than 100 acres of land for about $150,000... which is pretty much our dream place, and there is NO way you could build an equivalent house for that amount of money, on that kind of land.

I always dreamed of building a straw bale house, but zoning and permitting make that next to impossible here.

 

[xpc]

Your questions have pretty much been answered but will condense some of the more important points.

1) Property taxes are typically cheaper in the country, mine are 20% lower than the nearest city.
2) Banks stay away from loaning on experimental designs unless you have a lot of money in it.
3) Insurance company's are also as reluctant as the banks with alternative houses.
4) You need unrestricted land, anything in a named subdivision is usually severely restricted.
5) Buying a cheap house or mobile on remote land with all utilities in place is a bonus. Build a new one while living there makes it easy.
6) Lumber yards are a bit more but the wood is superior, makes building a lot easier when boards aren't twisted.

Yerts (yurt) and earthships are just plain silly and ridiculous, concrete domes are pricey and difficult, shipping containers are overrated and for the size too expensive.

A berm house with only a southern exposure would be the best choice for all the right reasons and mostly tornado proof. Concrete block with lots of rebar and sbc coating is highly storm proof too.

A conventional stick building using double 2x6 walls with foam insulation can easily exceed R50 values needing very little heating or air conditioning. This can be built for cash on weekends by a single person in just a few months relatively cheap.

When searching for property "lots" are generally restricted and "land" is a mix of both, do not trust the realestate writeup or the realtor as they will sell your first born to make a sale. You must do what I did and personally contact the county where the property is and ask all the code and permit questions directly to them.

My brother bought 10 acres with a 3br house in the middle of nowhere for $30k and it has some fairly stringent codes, he only found out after he bought it and wanted me to do some work - I downloaded and read all 90 pages of a pdf from the county website and found he could not do what he wanted.

Most residential properties will allow alternative energy systems but only as a secondary to a conventional system. Note: HOAs can trump just about anything and are highly detestable.

Building methods and construction will be determined where the property is located and if you can source the materials, delivery of concrete and other items may not be available because of the remoteness as the cement will start curing before it arrives.

Remember out buildings are usually taxed at a much lower rate then an occupied building, sometimes less than 10%. It makes no since to build a 3000 sq.ft. house when you only live in 1000 sq.ft. of it. Instead of paying $300 a month in property taxes you'd only pay $100, when you go to retire that $2400 a year will make a big difference.

A nice sealed pole shed can be built for $1000 and can store all your junk with room enough for a workshop, laundry, and such. You can even build a breezeway between the house and shed.

A simple square house built on grade is not just cheaper and easier to build but also to maintain well into your advanced years, a 100 year steel roof will also keep you off a ladder for your duration here.

I have designed my entire retirement cabin to be built by just me using only my pickup truck for all materials. Pre engineered roof trusses are nice if you have the help and money and within delivery range but depending on your location a simple easy roof can be built on site by just you (snow load is the issue). Cost, $5000 from scratch to move in, with another $5k for super insulation and 100% solar heating.

This was suppose be condensed but the coffee got the best of me.

 

[Jaxom]

Thanks to those that repsonded. Xpc, I really apperciated your straight up assessment of things. It's nice to dream and all, but sometimes it's also best to have someone keep one tethered to the ground so to speak.

I do realize that I over simplified issues when I said there were two economical things to concider. Yes, there are many other factors as well. What I was poorly trying to do was compare price per sqft to build intially and then cost to heat and cool per sqft once finished. Of course as pointed out there are other factors to concider. You could go with the least inexpensive method, with the best insulation avalibe, but because of method chosen be un able to afford the building becuase of the rise in taxes!

You don't have to warn me about permits. Things have become so restrictive here that it's ridiculous! Who ever heard of needing a permit just to power wash a sidewalk??? Or to put up wall board. It's become so bad we're not even allowed to do the rough in electrical, it MUST be done by a licensed electrician. Funny how all those home improvement shows on DIY never run into these issues!

XPC, since you mentioned that you designed your own log cabin. I personally don't think I have the skills to do the design work. I have a good idea what I want. But I would need someone that's been schooled in loads and stresses and such to have the final say. What I want and what is physically possible could be two complete different things. Having said that, what's your thoughs on companies that offer log cabin kits? I'm probably over simplifying things again, but to me this seems like basically assembling a large lincoln log cabin. I've heard both good and bad about these kits.

One area I thing I can save money on is building on a slab vs having a basement dug. Yeah a basement is nice for various reasons. For me perosnally it's sorta a matter of safety. I've lived through a couple tornado's. Not direct hits mind you, but close enough that a safe room is a must have in any home I would build. While researching tornado shelters one time I do recall a few companies offering a tank like shelter that's installed under the slab in the garage. Unfortunilly these are often installed after the home is already built. Cutting the slab and then escavating the whole to install such a feature is very costly. This could be part of my intial plans. Heck if the cost isn't too prohibitive a second smaller unit could be installed under the pantry area of any said home and be used as a root celler! But the jist here is a pad would be conciderably less to pour then a dug out basement.

One feature I wish to borrow from the concrete dome homes is the use of in floor radiant heating/cooling. Further savings could be had if one used an electric opperated on demand water heater that's tied to a solar system.

I'm curious, when speaking of double 2x6 walls. I've never heard of this before. I do remember when my fiance and I were looking at model homes a few years ago, that one of the upgrades was to used 2x6's or 2x8's. Is that what you mean? Or are you meaning a wall within in a wall? If that's a case, why not just use 2x12's?

I also agree with not needing a huge house. To me that means more space that not only needs additional heating and cooling, which raises the cost of maintaining the home, there's also needing to clean, dust, and all that as well. I'd much rather spend my time doing something else then being a slave to the house! Simple 3 bedroom home, 1.5 bath. If there was any room I'd splurge a bit on would be the kitchen because I love to cook and and have never had a nice kitchen to do so in.

 

[xpc]

XPC, since you mentioned that you designed your own log cabin. What's your thoughs on companies that offer log cabin kits?

All load calculators are online, or at your lumber store they can tell you what span a given board length is good for. An example is a 2x10 can span 12' 9" when on 24" centers or 15' 7" on 16" centers.
http://www.awc.org/calculators/span...bmit=Calculate+Maximum+Horizontal+Span#answer

I would never consider a cabin kit as they are expensive and restrictive on what you can do.
My simple "pole barn" design is nothing but vertical 4"x6" posts at 8' centers making a perfect 24 foot square, this will be the first living module. As post will also run in the center 2x8"x12' can be used for the floor and 2x6"x12' for the ceiling and roof.

The whole super structure is sized dimensionally so no wood will need cutting including all wall and roof sheathing. This makes quick work of things with no wall or roof truss raising.

One area I thing I can save money on is building on a slab vs having a basement dug. Yeah a basement is nice for various reasons. For me perosnally it's sorta a matter of safety. I've lived through a couple tornado's. Not direct hits mind you, but close enough that a safe room is a must have in any home I would build. While researching tornado shelters one time I do recall a few companies offering a tank like shelter that's installed under the slab in the garage. Unfortunilly these are often installed after the home is already built. Cutting the slab and then escavating the whole to install such a feature is very costly. This could be part of my intial plans. Heck if the cost isn't too prohibitive a second smaller unit could be installed under the pantry area of any said home and be used as a root celler! But the jist here is a pad would be conciderably less to pour then a dug out basement.

I recommend slab on grade for ease of self construction, the technique is to build a utility room at one end (or center) for your furnace and washing equipment. Then construct the central load bearing wall either 6" or 8" wide (kinda known as a plumbing wall) all bathrooms and kitchen would abutt this wall for water and drains.

This not only keeps the pipes out from under a concrete slab and not in an outside wall (against code) but in a straight line that will make it extra cheap and simple. Also my entire cabins interior will be built with wainscoting type panels which can easily be removed to access all plumbing and wiring for repair or future modifications. This man will never touch another piece of drywall ever again.

I try not to let tornado's scare me but if I had the choice and the property layout was right I would build a berm house hands down. Otherwise I will have a root cellar which will double as a storm shelter, preferably accessible from within the house.

One feature I wish to borrow from the concrete dome homes is the use of in floor radiant heating/cooling. Further savings could be had if one used an electric opperated on demand water heater that's tied to a solar system.

My FIL built his own berm house and did the floor heat just as you said it worked great and only needed a small AC in the summer. My cabin will also use solar hydronics, I will only need four of my $300 panels to heat all winter.

I'm curious, when speaking of double 2x6 walls. I've never heard of this before. I do remember when my fiance and I were looking at model homes a few years ago, that one of the upgrades was to used 2x6's or 2x8's. Is that what you mean? Or are you meaning a wall within in a wall? If that's a case, why not just use 2x12's?

Heat bridges your wall lumber and can lose around 30% of the walls efficiency, kinda how a metal spoon will conduct the heat out of a hot pot.

I did a modified mooney wall in my living room where the wood stove is, built a second 2x4" wall in front of the existing wall, then insulated both bringing it to R30. I left a 1" air gap between the two walls making it more efficient and sound proof. The bonus is the 10" window sills where my dog likes to sit and purvey the property line.
http://www.builditsolar.com/Projects/Conservation/MooneyWall/MooneyWall.htm

 

[xpc]

I just read your original post in the other thread and didn't know you were going though some awful times.

One bit of "bad" good advice I can give and is somewhat frowned upon is to just give up, without knowing more details it would seem the best thing to do. If you are still living and paying the mortgage on an upside down house as bad as you say just stop paying the mortgage now.

Illinois has almost a one year foreclosure time frame start to finish, its possible to happen in 3 months but highly doubtful since your house is in probate but that may cause other issues making you only a renter and the bank could evict in 60 days. Ask one of those attorneys that give free initial consultations.

You could live rent free for quite some time as you pack everything up and be ready to move at a moments notice, saving $1000 a month for 6 or more months will make a tidy sum - or whatever your mortgage is.

If the house is not in your name and there was no will only the probate courts can decide where it goes which will most likely be sold to pay your mothers hospital bills. Even if they do decide to let you have it you can decline all items especially those with heavy debt.

Do what the others have said, save as much money as you can then move to the area you want to buy in and rent for as cheap as you can, do not buy anything with hopes to fix and flip for a profit you're not in a position to do that.

Do not even bother looking at unimproved land at this point as the cost can easily be $20,000 or more just to add septic, well, and electricity.

As said before your best option after getting situated is to buy a property with an existing house or mobile home that has all the utilities already there. I looked at plenty of older mobile homes on an acre of improved land for $10,000, less than what it would cost to put in new on a bare parcel.

Once you finish building a new home on the lot you can tear down the old one or convert into a workshop, having a cheap place to live will also allow you to build for cash over as many years as you want.

 

[Jaxom]

Yeah, but really who isn't going through tough times right now? Without getting invovled into a politcal debate/argument, I do have a gut feeling things are going to get worse before they get better.

Few points I do wanna clear up though. First of which is I'm not working. Being able to find a job in this area is slim to nill. Even should I find a job where I live now, the living costs of a even a small apartment is conciderably higher then what it would cost somewhere else to rent a full house!

Once I have an estate sale, fix my beat up old truck, I'll have a good picture where I stand and if I should hang out here "rent free" until the very last minute. I have no problem with this, that helps put me in the best position as possible when it comes time to move.

Once this happens ideally I'm looking for a place I can rent/lease to own. Preferably with at least an acer or more. I don't care if it's a "home" on the property is a mobile home, a small hunting cabin or such. The key here is the size of the property. Along the lines of the theme of this forum is to become as self sufficent as possible. I love to garden, I learned how to can and preserve from my mom and grand mom, I'm an advid fisherman, and reciently started small game hunting as part of my skills.

Having said that I also have to be a realist as well. I may not have enough money to rent/lease such a property, or such a property may not be for sale when I do finally decide to move (or am forced to do so). In times like these one must remain VERY flexible. I fear many are not, and when things do become worse as I am predicting, they're going to be in for a shock.

Now about home designs, I took a look at berm homes. Seen a few I wouldn't mind having myself! Nice concept. I would however like to hear more about this cabin you've designed Xpc. Not that I would copy it directly. I do have to think about the other half and daughter that may eventually join me, so a minium of three bedrooms and 1-2 bath's is a must. Nothing fancy mind you, but funcitonal.

I like your idea of a steel roof. Not just because it'll last 100 years, I remember seeing on one of the home shows, there's a company in Indiana that makes a flexible (comes in rolls) solar panels were designed to fit between the rows on a steel roof. The home I seen being built, they'd left the center ridge open with a metal cap over it matching the steel roofing panels, and this cap is where all the wires from the solar panels were ran.

 

[Ldychef2k]

Jaxom, whatever you choose to do, do it with honor. Sure, no one might care and others may not know, but you will know and it will nag you for the rest of your life. Material things come and go. It's part of the hakuna matatta or whatever...the circle of life. The only lasting thing you have in this world is your character.

 

[Jaxom]

I do agree with you too Ldychef2k. Some may say it's not moral to live here "rent free". I'm looking at it from the stand point that last year, while my mother was still alive she attempted to get a loan modification. The mortgage holder played games with us for nearly 6 months, before I finally got it all straightened out. And that was only a few days before she passed away.

Do I want to move? Yes and no. I've been dreaming of a small farmette with an acer or 10 for 15 years now. But I would have much rather move when I wanted to, rather then being forced to. Preferably with better credit, a job and more money saved for a down payment. But such is life that things didn't work out this way.

My number one goal is to get back to work. My daughter needs me. Her mother is having issues with her parents and cannot work period, just like I was going through while taking care of my mother. Get estate sale done, fix my truck, figure out if I can hang here for a while, taking a temp job to bank even larger "war chest", and then move. Again, I must stay flexible in all this, and take each day one at a time.