Introducing a new dog to the pack?

[big brown horse]

Ok, we are getting our new St. Bernard tomorrow, he is a two year old unneutered male, and still puppy-ish. (We are going to get him neutered, don't worry.)

We have a 3 year old spayed female St. with a shady past. She was abused and neglected and then dumped at a high kill shelter. She has issues and we have been using "Jamie the dog trainer" from BYC--OMG, she is fantastic! Anyway she is out of pocket this weekend, unfortunately and we need to introduce these two big dogs somehow.

Kate's issue is aggression toward other dogs that she doesen't know. She had loads of other issues that we fixed with training and consistancy. We deal with other dogs on our walks by having her sit and behave while they pass us by. It works, but she still wants at them.

We use a pinch collar on all walks, and the back yard is very well fenced.

Once the dog is part of the pack, she is fine with it. We just adopted a teacup poodle about 2 months ago and they get along very well. It was very easy to introduce the poodle, for some reason. I'm finding the job of introducing another big dog a bit daunting.

I know it will be fine in the end, I just want to do it the right way. (And I don't want to scare the dog's owners away, they seem very concerned that he go to a good home.)

 

[tortoise]

Just keep them separate for a while. It's totally possible. Crate and rotate. They'll get used to each other's scents and you'll have time to get back to your regular trainer.

 

[ohiofarmgirl]

see if you can find that cesar guy's way of doing it online... he has some good pointers.

when we brought Kai home (and of course she is a pup so it was different), i held her the whole way home. then i walked into the house, let the big dogs sniff my hands and clothes.... then i walked with them outside to the truck where my hubby was standing OVER the pup. we told them "this is mine" and let them sniff her.

then kinda we just made her be with them (supervised at first) then she had to find her way. the good news was that our #2 dog immediately took Kai under his wing and took care of her. our Dog#1 totally ignored her for 2 weeks. i made a point to give him my undivided attention so he knew he was still my #1. there was some growling but they had to show Kai she was at the bottom of the heap.

but obviously 2 big St's fighting is not what you want! yikes! but even if you kept the new dog in the car and walked with the current dogs out they could see the newbie. i think that would be better than you walking into the house with the new dog.

SavingDogs probably knows the most about introducing new dogs b/c she has a revolving door - she's probably around here somewhere



ps how exciting!!!!

 

[AL]

Your current dog will probably be more on guard being around a new dog at home.... is there somewhere you can take them for a walk together? even just a big parking lot?

 

[miss_thenorth]

Yep, if you keep them separate but where they can stil see each other, that should work for a few days. If crating, rotate as tortoise says. While you are witht eh one who is not crated, do the subbission thing like you do with chickens. IF the one out gets her feathers in a knot, give her a correction, until she shos submission. I personally growl at the dog, and give a pinch to the neck if needed. Not hard, just enough for them to take you serioulsy. then repeat when the other dog is out.

Then, when they ignore each other somewhat over the fence, take them to a neutral place (to the the female, so she won't be possessive) and slowly inroduce them--off leash. they might snap at each other, but I have never seen actual tooth to flesh contact. Let them get their pack hierarchy worked out, and there energy, and then bring them home. Also,when they are figuring out the pack order, make sure they know you and your DD are at the head of thepack.

 

[savingdogs]

I actually do have some suggestions for you as I have lots of experience with this, OFG is right. Our family fosters dogs for the HS and for groups and we have usually dealt with large dogs and own large dogs and have fostered a neurotic Saint as well, so I think I can help you out a little.

First of all, Tortoise makes an excellent point. If you have space, having dogs occupy the same area for awhile but not actually meeting can really diffuse the situation. After awhile they see life is okay and things are calm so there is nothing to worry about with the new dog.

But introductions have different outcomes because of status...which is very important to the dogs even though we don't really give a hoot. The poodle was probably an easy introduction because it was immediately clear which dog was alpha and there was no need to fight. I'm guessing the big dog was alpha because for many dogs, big MEANS alpha. But not necessarily. But it doesn't really matter, what you had was a situation where one dog immediately took the submissive role so there was no fight. It would be helpful for me to know which of those two is the top dog.

Dogs place different values on status and some care a lot, and these ones want to be alpha or don't want to be the bottom dog. Your Saint either cares alot, or she was scared/attacked by another dog and is having a fear reaction, she just needs more of the same training it sounds like she is already getting from you. My experience with Saints is that many have been rather fearful, fear biters, fear aggression. However, in rescue you see mostly the dysfunctional examples of each breed, not the norm or the best. So I'm a bit suspicious your female is fearful. What does your trainer say about that dog?

It sounds like you already have a bottom dog (the poodle?) so it will be whether both of the big dogs want to be alpha. I could probably be more helpful if I knew more about these particular dogs. Yes, I know, the person is always the alpha, but in reality, the dogs will work it out when you are not home so there WILL be a status roll call no matter what.

But, I will give you my best way of introducing two dogs that have to meet that day because they must occupy the same space and you need them to get along. It takes two strong people in the case of extra large dog. In any event, take both dogs out (seperately) to neutral territory, not your property if possible, where your existing Saint does not think it is on its own space anymore. Have the second person approach with the new dog and watch reactions. Having them on pinch collars would be an excellent choice. You might have love-at-first-site because of breed snobery. Tails wagging, wanting to hump each other, butt sniffing.....if things are not looking good then pull them apart and just start walking....like you are going for a purposeful walk, the same direction down the road. Perhaps I should define things looking good: One dog is obviously in charge and the other is obviously not, or they are interested in one another to play.

Anyhow, if there was hair raised and such, have the other person do the same, walking after you, not walking too close together. Go a ways. A half mile or so is good, but try to gradually get the dogs closer together and walk four abreast, dogs together in the middle. You are showing them that they are part of the same pack, but you are the leader (yes, this is Cesar's way). Try to be relaxed, calm, in charge. See how the dogs are starting to react to one another. Usually, by the time you reach home, they are being friendly. They have learned that you are the leaders and they are part of the same pack, your pack. It is like pack join-up.

The next step would be deciding if they are doing good. If so, then I'd unleash the less aggressive one, see what happens. If there starts to be trouble, put the leash back on and try again tomorrow, or have the person take his dog home and find a better match. If things are still looking good, then let the second dog off the leash. Hopefully, they will play, or ignore one another, either is good. Don't let one pester the other but otherwise try to let them work things out a little. Somewhere along the line you hopefully will have noted which dog was the top dog of the two. Don't try to change that order. Feed the top dog first. Pet the top dog first. Look at the top dog first. If you do it backwards, alpha dog will have to try to correct beta dog later when you are not around.

Make sure both dogs have their own food space, bed space and time one-on-one with family members. Make sure there is no food shortage. This is not the time for a diet, if one is fat, work on that next month.

Suggest to the prior owner that your dog will be able to greet the new dog best if you take a walk together first. You can chat at the same time. I've had a lot of luck using this technique. When we went to see Cesar speak, we asked this very question because I was coordinating dog fosters for a group at that time. We were surprised because he came up with the exact same thing we had been doing. We discovered how well this worked when we took dogs on those walk-a-thons to raise money for the humane society. For some reason all the snarling, aggressive traits in the dogs would magically disapear when they all went on a giant walk so we had been doing the "walky-walk" for awhile already. It made us feel darn smart that we already knew his answer. But we were hoping for more tips because sometimes, certain dogs just cannot be together.

Let me know more about the two dogs and I can try to give you more ideas. The one thing you absolutely do not want to do is keep that second Saint if you see they will fight. Two large dogs fighting is very hard to break apart, not a happy thing. But since one is male and one female, your chances are pretty good they will not occupy the same role as alpha female is a different role than alpha male.
Good luck!

 

[savingdogs]

I second Miss the North's suggestions as well, we are all on the same track here.....I was writing at the same time...

 

[aggieterpkatie]

We've had lots of experience introducing dogs when my parents ran the greyhound rescue, but greys are SO used to lots of dogs they hardly even batted an eye when a new one came in.

I definitely second (or third or fourth) meeting on neutral territory. Then, take them for a walk together. Lots of walks help them learn to be near each other, but don't give them the opportunity to interact much b/c they're being walked and not in control of the situation.

I definitely agree with the keeping them separate for a few days. If you can keep the new dog in a room with a babygate in the door, so they can see and smell and hear each other, that would be great. We did this with our foster boxer last year. He was pretty alpha, and was being rude to our other dogs. After a few days kept in the laundry room with a baby gate, plus lots of walks around the yard he got much better. Also, when I would bring him out into the house I'd put him on a leash and keep hold of him at all times. As soon as he'd even look at one of our other dogs cross-eyed I'd correct him.

After a few days they should get along just fine! Good luck, and be sure to show us pictures!!

 

[big brown horse]

Thank you everyone!!!

I actually do have some suggestions for you as I have lots of experience with this, OFG is right. Our family fosters dogs for the HS and for groups and we have usually dealt with large dogs and own large dogs and have fostered a neurotic Saint as well, so I think I can help you out a little.

First of all, Tortoise makes an excellent point. If you have space, having dogs occupy the same area for awhile but not actually meeting can really diffuse the situation. After awhile they see life is okay and things are calm so there is nothing to worry about with the new dog.

But introductions have different outcomes because of status...which is very important to the dogs even though we don't really give a hoot. The poodle was probably an easy introduction because it was immediately clear which dog was alpha and there was no need to fight. I'm guessing the big dog was alpha because for many dogs, big MEANS alpha. But not necessarily. But it doesn't really matter, what you had was a situation where one dog immediately took the submissive role so there was no fight. It would be helpful for me to know which of those two is the top dog.

Kate the St. is the alpha dog and the poodle is submissive, but not a sissy. From what the owners say, their dog is babyish and has an older brother alpha dog, even though it is a small French bulldog. I think this is going to make it easier. You know what is funny, our old St. Jane (the one that we had to put down at the age of 11 1/2) was never an alpha female. We called her baby Jane until the day she died. Dogs are so interesting. Kate was 10 months old when we got her, Jane was already 7. Kate came in and immediately took over as "boss lady" and they got along fine, from day one. Gosh I hope this happens with the new guy.

Dogs place different values on status and some care a lot, and these ones want to be alpha or don't want to be the bottom dog. Your Saint either cares alot, or she was scared/attacked by another dog and is having a fear reaction, she just needs more of the same training it sounds like she is already getting from you. My experience with Saints is that many have been rather fearful, fear biters, fear aggression. However, in rescue you see mostly the dysfunctional examples of each breed, not the norm or the best. So I'm a bit suspicious your female is fearful. What does your trainer say about that dog?

Jamie first had us get her thyroid checked. It came back fine. So she thinks that first, Kate was probably taken from her mother too young to begin with. No or very poor social skills because of it, that topped with her size wasn't a good combo. Then she thinks Kate was probably attacked by another dog and is insecure because of it. Down in TX large breeds were used as bait in the dog fighting world. It is obvious her tail was broken and she had an old injury on her hock. (We are pretty sure she had been shot too.) Jamie also says that Kate is bluffing when she goes after other dogs. She actually never bit anyone else's dog. Jamie also thinks that Kate really likes to control everyone (us) in an alpha way. We put a stop to that right away, thanks to Jamie's help. That made a huge difference.

You see, we weren't prepared for a St. that behaved like that. The other two were mellow and very friendly with other dogs. We spent hours at dog parks etc. with them... Kate got kicked out of the dog park at 11 months of age b/c she played too rough.

She has come a long way. Right now Kate "goes to her spot" and lays down on command, waits (stays) when we go through the gates or doors FIRST, she waits (stays) anywhere we put her, she sits and downs on command. She is really good and willing to do what we ask now. She just has this one last issue to get over.

Did I mention she is an excellent livestock guard dog? Oh and she loves the cat. She is really worth her weight in gold. She had a rough start in life, but it wasn't her fault.

I think she is really going to enjoy the boy St. because she loves to play and his owners say he does too. I know she is really missing our old St very much. She isn't herself anymore. (Neither are we.)

It sounds like you already have a bottom dog (the poodle?) so it will be whether both of the big dogs want to be alpha. I could probably be more helpful if I knew more about these particular dogs. Yes, I know, the person is always the alpha, but in reality, the dogs will work it out when you are not home so there WILL be a status roll call no matter what.

But, I will give you my best way of introducing two dogs that have to meet that day because they must occupy the same space and you need them to get along. It takes two strong people in the case of extra large dog. In any event, take both dogs out (seperately) to neutral territory, not your property if possible, where your existing Saint does not think it is on its own space anymore. Have the second person approach with the new dog and watch reactions. Having them on pinch collars would be an excellent choice. You might have love-at-first-site because of breed snobery. Tails wagging, wanting to hump each other, butt sniffing.....if things are not looking good then pull them apart and just start walking....like you are going for a purposeful walk, the same direction down the road. Perhaps I should define things looking good: One dog is obviously in charge and the other is obviously not, or they are interested in one another to play.

Anyhow, if there was hair raised and such, have the other person do the same, walking after you, not walking too close together. Go a ways. A half mile or so is good, but try to gradually get the dogs closer together and walk four abreast, dogs together in the middle. You are showing them that they are part of the same pack, but you are the leader (yes, this is Cesar's way). Try to be relaxed, calm, in charge. See how the dogs are starting to react to one another. Usually, by the time you reach home, they are being friendly. They have learned that you are the leaders and they are part of the same pack, your pack. It is like pack join-up.

The next step would be deciding if they are doing good. If so, then I'd unleash the less aggressive one, see what happens. If there starts to be trouble, put the leash back on and try again tomorrow, or have the person take his dog home and find a better match. If things are still looking good, then let the second dog off the leash. Hopefully, they will play, or ignore one another, either is good. Don't let one pester the other but otherwise try to let them work things out a little. Somewhere along the line you hopefully will have noted which dog was the top dog of the two. Don't try to change that order. Feed the top dog first. Pet the top dog first. Look at the top dog first. If you do it backwards, alpha dog will have to try to correct beta dog later when you are not around.

Make sure both dogs have their own food space, bed space and time one-on-one with family members. Make sure there is no food shortage. This is not the time for a diet, if one is fat, work on that next month.

Suggest to the prior owner that your dog will be able to greet the new dog best if you take a walk together first. You can chat at the same time. I've had a lot of luck using this technique. When we went to see Cesar speak, we asked this very question because I was coordinating dog fosters for a group at that time. We were surprised because he came up with the exact same thing we had been doing. We discovered how well this worked when we took dogs on those walk-a-thons to raise money for the humane society. For some reason all the snarling, aggressive traits in the dogs would magically disapear when they all went on a giant walk so we had been doing the "walky-walk" for awhile already. It made us feel darn smart that we already knew his answer. But we were hoping for more tips because sometimes, certain dogs just cannot be together.

Let me know more about the two dogs and I can try to give you more ideas. The one thing you absolutely do not want to do is keep that second Saint if you see they will fight. Two large dogs fighting is very hard to break apart, not a happy thing. But since one is male and one female, your chances are pretty good they will not occupy the same role as alpha female is a different role than alpha male.
Good luck!

Ok so we are going to meet up at the lake tomorrow for a good walk and talk first. I'll keep them seperate as much as possible too. Thanks everyone for all of your tips!

I'll take some photos too and share.
Thank you sooooo much!!!!!

 

[savingdogs]

Hearing the description of the other dog and that the poodle is the submisive one, I think it will probably go well in the long run! Let us know how it goes!