ok ladies, help me build a building!

[MsPony]

I don't do much of my own building or maintenance anymore, as I have menfolk to do that for me now. I can still use tools, get myself around Home Depot and draw plans...but its been a few years.

I'm building a chicken/rabbit shed to house food & supplies, I also want an outdoor sink. I have two hoses, sewer hookup, electrical & cable (lol) in that corner so everythings "set".

First I need to lay concrete, hubby says to figure out how many bags ill have to measure the area and do calculations (anyone know them??), but do I have to dig down and...reinforce an area?? Also I don't want the shed to just sit ontop the concrete, so how do I set something in there,hubby said something about bolts?

I think the shed itself should be easy, that I can do. Now, since I want a sink hooked up to the sewer hookup, do I preset the pvc to sewer hose thingie in the concrete?

Ill get pics tomorrow of the spot. Any tips/help, books & magazines would be much appreciated! I'm doing this sans menfolk.

 

[patandchickens]

If you go to the library, they will have books on building sheds, some of which deal with the slab issue; that would be my first suggestion, because pictures-and-book-chapter are worth more as an overview than anything we can say here.

To address your specific points, though:

Size the slab so that the wall sills sit *on* it, but the siding hangs just over the edge. So you will have to think about that, I would suggest doing detailed drawings on graph paper such that 1 square = 6" or even 3" or so, to help you get your measurements right. Simply because it is annoying to discover that you need, for instance, 8'4" of plywood (it can obviously be done but a round 8' is ever so much easier)

If the slab will be bigger than 4x8 ish, it would really be a lot better to bite the bullet and have a commercial company do the concrete, as you will get a much better more-homogeneous result than what tends to be a rather patchwork effect if you're trying to do a large area yourself (especially if you have to do it ALL yourself). At the very least rent a drum mixer, don't try to do it all in a wheelbarrow. But when you get into having to mix up like twenty or fifty bags individually and wheelbarrow them over there and pour them, and the earlier stuff starts setting before you pour the later stuff next to it, not only is it exhausting work but can lead to a weaker result. So there is a point (surprisingly not that large) beyond which hiring out can give you a noticeably better job.

So anyhow. Multiply your actual exact width x length of the slab to get the slab area. From here you can multiply by 4 if you're working in inches or by 0.33 if you're working in feet, to get the cubic inches or feet of concrete you need; or you can simply look at the bags cuz most of them say something like "covers X sq ft at a depth of 4 inches" (4" is a pretty typical slab thickness for a shed). Figure out how many bags you need, add in a couple extra.

Dig out the topsoil and use scrap lumber or plywood strips, and stakes, to frame the edges of your slab. Remember the concrete will end at the INSIDE edge of the wood, so that is the part that has to be your specified dimensions. MAKE REAL REAL SURE IT IS DEAD-SQUARE -- you can test for square by measuring very carefully and precisely from corner to opposite corner. If the two diagonals are exactly precisely equal, your slab is squared-up; if one diagonal is longer than the other you need to fix it. Once you've got it right, it is a good idea to add a couple additional stakes, or at least a rebar piece touching the outside of each corner, so it doesn't shift out of place. (A lot of people, adn all books, would tell you to lay it out square FIRST with crossed strings. you can do it that way too, look in any DIY book for the method. Personally for a *small* area like this I think it's easier to do it the other way around tho).

If you are going to have a drain or waterline that goes thru the slab, you need to put this in place now (including all the plumbing underneath the slab and extending out beyond the side of it). Consult books. Close off open pipes REALLY WELL to prevent unwanted wet concrete getting in and anchor things real well so they don't shift when you're pouring.

The place where you're buying your bags should sell concrete reinforcing mesh; or you can buy rebar and wire it together in a grid shape. If this is just for a little shed, and your soil is generally pretty stable and the site has not previously been dug up or anything like that, I would probably not worry too much about it, maybe just wire some rebar into a 1x1 or 1x2 grid and call it good, myself. Put it in the area that will become slab, with some string in a couple places going to sticks lying outside the hole (so you can lift it up once you pour the concrete) or you can prop it on rocks in a couple places if you will be doing all the concrete mixing yourself and expect it to take all day. Some people, for a small outbuilding, would just lay some NEW (not rusty) galvanized livestock fencing (like field fencing, or anything smaller-meshed if you have a scrap around brand-new, but not too fine-gauge wire) instead. I'd probably do that for a small shed.

Then put the concrete in. Consult books about this, there are mistakes to avoid. WEAR GOGGLES AND DUST MASK if mixing your own, the dust is highly corrosive to eyes/lungs. If you are planning on pulling reinforcing mesh/rebar up, do it almost right away or you will screw up your concrete. As per directions you read in books, wait an appropriate length of time and then float/finish the top of the slab -- this is real hard to do well if you are mixing up a zillion wheelbarrowloads by hand.

While the concrete is still soft, like after you do the finishing of the surface, put anchor bolts in along the edges so you can drill matching holes in the wall sills to bolt the sills on. BE EXTREMELY ACCURATE IN PLACEMENT (distance from edge of slab) AND IN GETTING THEM EXACTLY PLUMB. Go to the hardware store and tell them what you want to do and they'll give you the right type bolts, they are sort of L-shaped. Consult books for number/placement type issues.

Remember that concrete does not DRY, it CURES (a chemical reaction, requiring water). If the weather is very sunny and your climate dry, it is worth chucking a tarp over the finished slab, or hosing it periodically, for the next week or so. It is totally fine for it to get rained on or hot-and-humid, you just don't want too much moisture evaporating out the top. Leave it alone for a week or so before you start to do the walls (you don't want to stress the anchor bolts til the concrete around them is well set)

Good luck, have fun,

Pat

 

[Marianne]

You might want to look online for some tips on the concrete work.

We did our own here and it's heavy, heavy work. In our neck of the woods, for an unheated building or garage, you don't have to go below the frost line (they say), 12" is the norm. You might be able to just dig the trench, make it wider at the bottom for your footing, put in your rebar using rocks or brick chunks to raise it up off the bottom. Then your trench is your form, too.

Are you doing a concrete floor, too?

Yes, there are certain bolts, kind of L shaped that you put in the wet concrete. Leave a couple inches or so sticking out of the top. Go in about 12" from each corner when you push in the anchor bolt, then maybe 4-6' between them. The base plate goes on top of that, then a big washer/nut is screwed on to hold the baseplate to the concrete. You can lay the baseplate on top of the anchor bolts, give it a couple whacks with a hammer and then you'll know where to drill the holes for the anchor bolts. Using treated wood for the baseplate is a good idea. There's some stuff called sill seal, that you can unroll to put under the baseplate. It's just an insulating type product, really helps cut drafts.

You probably don't have to use actual rebar ($$) for reinforcement, we used some rebar scraps, bent t-posts, etc on some projects.

There's tons of cheaper variations that you could do, depending on what part of the country you live in, but you'll have to do some research - frost protected shallow foundations, rubble, compacted gravel with dry cement/sand watered in, etc etc. But you should be able to find good information and details online.

Just a suggestion, but what about putting a garden hose on the drain part of your sink and run it out to your garden, flowers or trees? Be a great place to rinse the dirt off your veggies before you bring them in the house. MEN has a potting shed plan that shows that. Or have a double sink, one plumbed to the sewer system, the other to outside to reuse the grey water?

Yes, you want all your plumbing in place before you do the concrete work.

 

[patandchickens]

Wow, reading Marianne's post made me realize, my post above is all based on the assumption that you were wanting to do a small shed on a floating slab with no actual foundation walls.... but you never actually said so and I may well have been entirely wrong in assuming that

If what you want to do is the *foundation* rather than slab, then you gotta go below frostline (local building code will tell you what that is, from a construction standpoint). And you'll need more lumber to do the forms for the concrete. (Although if you live somewhere with no frost, cinderblocks are another option, especially if this will be just according to your personal tastes and not visited by building inspectors)

Pat

 

[Marianne]

Looks like Pat and I were typing at the same time!

If it was me, I'd do it myself before hiring. There are ways that you can get a decent looking end result.

You might consider doing the footing/foundation with regular concrete, then do the floor as an infill with compacted gravel, then pour dry cement over the top, tamp in, more cement, then water in to the consistency of a milk shake. You probably aren't going to be hosing off the floor during the winter, right? Then freeze/ thaw cycles wouldn't be a problem.

You also don't have to have a 4" thick slab for that project, 3" would be plenty stout, IMO.

For regular concrete, figure one shovel full of cement to 4 or 5 shovels of sharp (builders) sand. Those dang bags of cement are 90 lbs! But you can also shovel some into a 5 gallon bucket and wheel it over to your work site.

You could also build a 'chute' with some scrap 3/4 plywood, a couple of 2x4's, and then dump the mix into the chute, etc etc. Don't forget to tamp the concrete. I used a 2x2, poked it all over the area, then beat the form with a rubber mallet and smoothed and patted with the float thingy.

Put some rebar pieces or whatever from your foundation to where your floor is going to be. That will help keep your floor from shifting or leaning over time.

What about grade and water issues? We used oiled treated wood for forms to get our project above grade a bit. The forms came off easily and we were able to use the wood on another project.

I honestly think if you did some checking on alternative foundation methods, you'll find something that would be easier to do than a traditional poured floor.

 

[Marianne]

This keeps getting funnier.

I might be all wrong in assuming!

Here, our frostline is 30", but for unheated garages they just go 12". Go figure. If it was me, I'd go deeper than that.

You're right, even haydite blocks would work. They're lighter weight than concrete, still heavy, but maybe more manageable for her.

 

[patandchickens]

BTW, if you're mixing by hand, I highly recommend one of those "Oddjob" mixers or whatever they're called, it's like a smallish black plastic barrel with curved fins inside. The o-ring gasket on the lid is fiendishly evil but other than that I find this to be a much better way of mixing concrete than the ol' "shovel and hoe in a wheelbarrow" method, if you have more than 3-4 sacks to mix. I've done 20 in part of an afternoon with the Oddjob thingie, it still wasn't fun but better than doing it in the open in a wheelbarrow, and faster.

Pat

 

[Marianne]

Pat, are you talking about using Quik Crete, in the 40 lb bags, in that oddjob? A bag or two of actual cement along with a pile of builders sand sounds easier to me. Not that it's easy... Either way, the water that's added to the mix really adds to the weight in a hurry.

We bought a good mixer when we started building out here, so still have that. I never have used the oddjob thing, but saw pics of it before. Isn't it a pain to get the mix out?

I guess I'm thinking that it'd be easier to mix in the wheelbarrow and then just dump into the trench or on the floor. Personally, I'd go for the tamped gravel/dry cement floor as that's easily done in stages. It wouldn't be too hard to shovel the dry cement at one time.

Oh, speaking off, she could also do the slab with a shallow trench/footing dug out in a monolithic pour if she hired it, but man, that's bucks. Kind of a crap shoot - time/sore muscles vs $$.

Or, what about just using patio blocks/pavers for the floor? Or just have a dirt floor and patio blocks where needed? I guess there's a lot of possibilites, depending all on what you want.

 

[patandchickens]

Pat, are you talking about using Quik Crete, in the 40 lb bags, in that oddjob? A bag or two of actual cement along with a pile of builders sand sounds easier to me.

You can do either way in the oddjob, doesn't matter.

We bought a good mixer when we started building out here, so still have that.

Definitely a real mixer is the best, of course!

I never have used the oddjob thing, but saw pics of it before. Isn't it a pain to get the mix out?

No, you just tip it out. Can roll it up a plank to wherever it's going, then remove lid and there ya go.

I guess I'm thinking that it'd be easier to mix in the wheelbarrow and then just dump into the trench or on the floor.

The problem with wheelbarrow mixing IMO (if you're doing very much of it, anyhow is that a) it takes significantly longer than the oddjob thing, and b) you inhale much more of the dust.

Personally, I'd go for the tamped gravel/dry cement floor as that's easily done in stages.

If a real slab is not required than I completely agree that's probably the best bet, or pavers.

But, if a slab floor is not required, then personally I don't quite see the point in using ANY kind of foundation unless it's meant to be a VERY tight building... pole-building is a whole lot easier than doing a foundation (and/or slab) and stud walls, IMO

Pat

 

[glenolam]

I think I'm going to give my hubby a big ol hug when I get home....

I'm going cross eyed from reading this!

Good luck with your plans and take lots of pictures!