In my experience, a D ring gives you a little bit of poll pressure because of the leveraging of the straight part of the ring between the attachment to the headstall and the attachment of the bit. An egg butt is a little softer since it has a smaller straight section. I love egg butt bits, but my TB mare off the track needs a bit more and I ride her in a D ring.
Horse experts: difference b/t D-ring and egg butt snaffle please...
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patandchickens
Crazy Cat Lady
The main difference IME is that a dee snaffle gives you better ability to haul the horse's face vigorously to the side for emergency turns or if the horse has never been trained properly in the first place. I am not saying I approve of routinely doing this. I'm just saying that's its purpose -- the vertical part of the D keeps the bit from entering the horse's mouth almost-no-matter how wide the horse may open his mouth to try to escape, and applies pressure over a wider area when you are hauling on the one rein. It is basically the same action as a full-cheek snaffle.
Used properly (i.e. NOT intended to haul the horse's nose around) it is a perfectly good bit, though. A few horses dislike it, but there are a few horses who dislike any given bit, you just have to find what your particular horse is happy with.
The difference between dee and eggbutt is not huge but not trivial either. I'd say that your typical eggbutt (although there are some different ring shapes out there, which matters somewhat) is maybe halfway between a dee and a loosering, in terms of action when steering with the reins.
Frankly, if the control-in-ring problem your daughter's instructor is referring to is a STEERING problem, while I could most certainly see changing bits as a short-term assistance, really the solution is to train daughter and horse not to HAVE to haul horse's nose around to steer.
If the control-in-ring issue is in regards to speed rather than direction, a dee is not going to operate meaningfully different than any other cheek design, for a given mouthpiece. It is the part *in the mouth* that affects your ability to 'take back' the horse by means of the reins (although, again, really one should be moving towards a state where horse and rider do not NEED much in the way of reins for downward transitions...)
Normal dee-ring snaffles do not provide meaningful leverage btw. By normal I mean not the ones with secret little slots to attach the cheek strap and rein so they can't slide on the dee; and not oddly-shaped dees that prevent the rein and cheek strap from sliding much. If you have a normal type dee snaffle on your horse, put your hand atop the horse's poll (sandwiched between horse and headstall of bridle) and apply normal light riding-type pressure on the rein. You will generally notice little or no pressure on the poll. Reason being, the rein and cheek strap slide on the dee, thus there is no leverage action.
I would suggest either buying the $5 dee (if your problem is a steering one) and see how the horse likes it; or if the problem is not steering, or if the horse turns out not to like it, see if you can try out some of your instructor's bits BEFORE buying anything. That way you can determine what kind of mouthpiece and cheek preferences the horse may have, without investing money and time. Once you know what you're lookin' for THEN you can go shopping.
Good luck, have fun,
Pat
Used properly (i.e. NOT intended to haul the horse's nose around) it is a perfectly good bit, though. A few horses dislike it, but there are a few horses who dislike any given bit, you just have to find what your particular horse is happy with.
The difference between dee and eggbutt is not huge but not trivial either. I'd say that your typical eggbutt (although there are some different ring shapes out there, which matters somewhat) is maybe halfway between a dee and a loosering, in terms of action when steering with the reins.
Frankly, if the control-in-ring problem your daughter's instructor is referring to is a STEERING problem, while I could most certainly see changing bits as a short-term assistance, really the solution is to train daughter and horse not to HAVE to haul horse's nose around to steer.
If the control-in-ring issue is in regards to speed rather than direction, a dee is not going to operate meaningfully different than any other cheek design, for a given mouthpiece. It is the part *in the mouth* that affects your ability to 'take back' the horse by means of the reins (although, again, really one should be moving towards a state where horse and rider do not NEED much in the way of reins for downward transitions...)
Normal dee-ring snaffles do not provide meaningful leverage btw. By normal I mean not the ones with secret little slots to attach the cheek strap and rein so they can't slide on the dee; and not oddly-shaped dees that prevent the rein and cheek strap from sliding much. If you have a normal type dee snaffle on your horse, put your hand atop the horse's poll (sandwiched between horse and headstall of bridle) and apply normal light riding-type pressure on the rein. You will generally notice little or no pressure on the poll. Reason being, the rein and cheek strap slide on the dee, thus there is no leverage action.
I would suggest either buying the $5 dee (if your problem is a steering one) and see how the horse likes it; or if the problem is not steering, or if the horse turns out not to like it, see if you can try out some of your instructor's bits BEFORE buying anything. That way you can determine what kind of mouthpiece and cheek preferences the horse may have, without investing money and time. Once you know what you're lookin' for THEN you can go shopping.
Good luck, have fun,
Pat
Farmfresh
City Biddy
Some people confuse a D ring snaffle with an English style curb bit called a Kimberwick bit. Even though they both have a D shaped ring where the reins go the Kimberwick actually attaches to the headstall at the cheek of the bit and uses a curb chain as well.
The Kimberwick is NOT considered a snaffle - it is a leverage curb bit. When the reins are engaged the mouthpiece of the bit and the curb bit combine to hinge down on the jaw bone of the horse in the bars of the mouth (where there are no teeth between incisors and molars). Then the forward rotation of the cheek piece also causes pressure on the horses poll (top of head just behind the ears). This sounds bad but actually a Kimberwick is a very mild curb type bit.
The Kimberwick is NOT considered a snaffle - it is a leverage curb bit. When the reins are engaged the mouthpiece of the bit and the curb bit combine to hinge down on the jaw bone of the horse in the bars of the mouth (where there are no teeth between incisors and molars). Then the forward rotation of the cheek piece also causes pressure on the horses poll (top of head just behind the ears). This sounds bad but actually a Kimberwick is a very mild curb type bit.
gettinaclue
Almost Self-Reliant
The only thing I'm getting out of this...since I know NADA about horses...is confused LMBO.
Good luck..and I'm glad all this is making since to you LOL.
Good luck..and I'm glad all this is making since to you LOL.
Farmfresh
City Biddy
It can be a confusing subject for sure. 
I have been riding, showing and training horses and giving lessons most of my life. The whole equine world is full of odd words and weird devices. For the outsider it can sound like an alien language.
Bits are especially complicated and confusing. I know of many fine riders and horseman who have owned horses for years that really don't understand how bits work and how to select one to do the job you need. Most people are just like me with technology. They know which bit their horse uses and how to put it on .. and I know how to turn on this computer and type away on it .. but HOW and why it works who knows??
I have been riding, showing and training horses and giving lessons most of my life. The whole equine world is full of odd words and weird devices. For the outsider it can sound like an alien language.
Bits are especially complicated and confusing. I know of many fine riders and horseman who have owned horses for years that really don't understand how bits work and how to select one to do the job you need. Most people are just like me with technology. They know which bit their horse uses and how to put it on .. and I know how to turn on this computer and type away on it .. but HOW and why it works who knows??
patandchickens
Crazy Cat Lady
Frankly I think there is a tremendous amount of b.s. floating around out there about bits.
First there is the problem that there are fairly-legitimately two different sets of terminology -- using "snaffle" to mean "anything with direct mouthpiece pressure without leverage", and using snaffle to mean "anything with a jointed mouthpiece". I do not think there is really good broad historical justification for saying one definition's right and the other is wrong, and in any case the reality is that there are very large groups of people USING both definitions. So there is confusion due to that.
But beyond that, there is a vast quantity of theorizing about what SHOULD be better (in a "humane" sense, and in an "effective" sense) that these days often badly swamps the bottom line of what THE HORSE actually prefers. Which to me is what actually MATTERS.
Yes, you can moderately-well define the mechanics of how different bits work (although it is not as simple as many theorizers imagine, because the horse's mouth is structurally complex with different parts that move different ways, and because different horses may hold the bit differently [lip/tongue/bars, etc]). But it is a giant leap of faith to extrapolate from the mechanics to what goes on in the horse's brain. I think there is way too much of the latter in recent decades. It "sells" well -- both from the perspective of trying to sell you a particular bit, and from the perspective of trying to sell you a particular trainer's methods/philosophy -- but it is often DEAD WRONG in my experience.
To me, really the question is how does the horse behave in <whatever particular bit>. You can make some overall generalizations but there is a fair bit of idiosyncrasy as well.
For instance I've known some individuals who genuinely go best in a pelham with roundings (and thus a single rein). Not as well in mechanically-similar bits with same mouthpiece and same setup.
Why? I don't know. We'll probably never know. In the meantime I think it makes more sense to let that horse wear that bit, rather than saying "that's totally illogical, take it off him and put something more sensible in!" which is a common attitude in some sectors these days.
So I mean, as a scientist at heart I find these theoretical discussions *interesting* but I think it's a mistake to get too hung up on theoretical predictions when you have a much much better test at hand, that being, how does the HORSE like <whatever particular bit>
And I think that while theory is fine as a starting point for what bits to *try* on a horse, one needn't stick too closely to it in terms of what to try.
Frankly, better riding cures most bit problems anyhow, rendering the whole "what bit to use" thing semi-irrelevant for the extreme majority of horses IME
JMHO,
Pat
First there is the problem that there are fairly-legitimately two different sets of terminology -- using "snaffle" to mean "anything with direct mouthpiece pressure without leverage", and using snaffle to mean "anything with a jointed mouthpiece". I do not think there is really good broad historical justification for saying one definition's right and the other is wrong, and in any case the reality is that there are very large groups of people USING both definitions. So there is confusion due to that.
But beyond that, there is a vast quantity of theorizing about what SHOULD be better (in a "humane" sense, and in an "effective" sense) that these days often badly swamps the bottom line of what THE HORSE actually prefers. Which to me is what actually MATTERS.
Yes, you can moderately-well define the mechanics of how different bits work (although it is not as simple as many theorizers imagine, because the horse's mouth is structurally complex with different parts that move different ways, and because different horses may hold the bit differently [lip/tongue/bars, etc]). But it is a giant leap of faith to extrapolate from the mechanics to what goes on in the horse's brain. I think there is way too much of the latter in recent decades. It "sells" well -- both from the perspective of trying to sell you a particular bit, and from the perspective of trying to sell you a particular trainer's methods/philosophy -- but it is often DEAD WRONG in my experience.
To me, really the question is how does the horse behave in <whatever particular bit>. You can make some overall generalizations but there is a fair bit of idiosyncrasy as well.
For instance I've known some individuals who genuinely go best in a pelham with roundings (and thus a single rein). Not as well in mechanically-similar bits with same mouthpiece and same setup.
Why? I don't know. We'll probably never know. In the meantime I think it makes more sense to let that horse wear that bit, rather than saying "that's totally illogical, take it off him and put something more sensible in!" which is a common attitude in some sectors these days.
So I mean, as a scientist at heart I find these theoretical discussions *interesting* but I think it's a mistake to get too hung up on theoretical predictions when you have a much much better test at hand, that being, how does the HORSE like <whatever particular bit>
And I think that while theory is fine as a starting point for what bits to *try* on a horse, one needn't stick too closely to it in terms of what to try.
Frankly, better riding cures most bit problems anyhow, rendering the whole "what bit to use" thing semi-irrelevant for the extreme majority of horses IME
JMHO,
Pat
Denim Deb
More Precious than Rubies
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Pat, I agree w/you 100%! When I had my first horse, Binty, I rode her in a full cheek snaffle. When I first got her, all she wanted to do was run, and we'd spend the majority of our rides going in biiiiiiiiig circles! I stopped using that bit when she decided to rub her head on me when I was tying her up after a trail ride. I had to have someone help me get unhooked. :/
So, I started to ride in an O ring snaffle. By then, I had done enough work w/her that she was no longer running off w/me. I had so many people shocked that I'd ride her in that. The majority of them had so many problems controlling their horses. And, the solution was always a harsher bit, martingales, etc. But, I also watched the way they rode. And basically, they fought against their horses, instead of listening to what their horses were telling them.
So, I started to ride in an O ring snaffle. By then, I had done enough work w/her that she was no longer running off w/me. I had so many people shocked that I'd ride her in that. The majority of them had so many problems controlling their horses. And, the solution was always a harsher bit, martingales, etc. But, I also watched the way they rode. And basically, they fought against their horses, instead of listening to what their horses were telling them.
Farmfresh
City Biddy
Plus don't forget fashion AND the "correct bit for the breed" folks.
I trained quite a few Tennessee Walking Horses back when I was training and I would have them working perfectly, lightly, in a simple old O ring snaffle, but when the owners got back involved, almost every time, they would be put in a long shanked and thus quite severe "Walking Horse" bit.
So much for training them to respond to light cues and have a feather light mouth when some heavy handed jack-leg starts ploughing around on their mouth with a big lever like that. 
Also as far as other horses go, I have see certain bits be "THE" bit - every one needs to ride with one on those. "THE" bit to correct head too high, too low, too ... well it is just magic! Right.
Fads and fashions come and go and money is thrown at horses to replace skill. Of course non of that really works in the long run.
I do think it is important to understand the mechanics of a bit ... as best as we can. I also agree 110% that equipment should only be an aid. Nothing - not a bit, not a tie down or any other device - can make up for poor training and poor horsemanship. A true horseman needs very little to communicate his wishes to his horse and a true horseman will have a horse that WANTS to please.
I trained quite a few Tennessee Walking Horses back when I was training and I would have them working perfectly, lightly, in a simple old O ring snaffle, but when the owners got back involved, almost every time, they would be put in a long shanked and thus quite severe "Walking Horse" bit.
So much for training them to respond to light cues and have a feather light mouth when some heavy handed jack-leg starts ploughing around on their mouth with a big lever like that. Also as far as other horses go, I have see certain bits be "THE" bit - every one needs to ride with one on those. "THE" bit to correct head too high, too low, too ... well it is just magic! Right.
Fads and fashions come and go and money is thrown at horses to replace skill. Of course non of that really works in the long run.
I do think it is important to understand the mechanics of a bit ... as best as we can. I also agree 110% that equipment should only be an aid. Nothing - not a bit, not a tie down or any other device - can make up for poor training and poor horsemanship. A true horseman needs very little to communicate his wishes to his horse and a true horseman will have a horse that WANTS to please.
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big brown horse
Hoof In Mouth
Thanks you all!
I love my horse, but he is just a trail horse that I rescued. I retrained him and fell in love with him. He responds to simple leg cues and is very soft in the mouth. However, he obviously needs a tad more refinement for sure and my daughter's confidence and coordination was shot due to a medical crisis that she is recovering from. I think he could be used in his loose ring thick/soft "happy bit" just fine if there were an experienced rider on top of him.
I do have an egg butt on my other horse's bridle, maybe I'll just use it. I don't want to use a bit that is too much for him if he doesn't need it. He certainly doesn't need his nose hauled around.
Funny Pat, I knew a lady who gave trail rides out in the TX hill country. She bought an old horse from a lady whose husband died. (It was his horse) She knew this man and his horse for years. A great horse indeed, had all the bells and whistles etc. Anyway, she used one of her bits on him and the horse wouldn't move, no matter what. So finally, out of ideas, she called the lady and asked if she could buy the horse's old bridle. It turned out to have a long shanked curb bit attached to it, which the horse absolutely did not need. To make a long story short, she bridled him up and he was wonderful with his old bit. It had all the familiar groves in it that he made with his own teeth etc. (Remember he was just going to follow another horse, the rider wasn't going to have to steer him much at all.) I guess to him it was just what he was used to.
I love my horse, but he is just a trail horse that I rescued. I retrained him and fell in love with him. He responds to simple leg cues and is very soft in the mouth. However, he obviously needs a tad more refinement for sure and my daughter's confidence and coordination was shot due to a medical crisis that she is recovering from. I think he could be used in his loose ring thick/soft "happy bit" just fine if there were an experienced rider on top of him.
I do have an egg butt on my other horse's bridle, maybe I'll just use it. I don't want to use a bit that is too much for him if he doesn't need it. He certainly doesn't need his nose hauled around.
Funny Pat, I knew a lady who gave trail rides out in the TX hill country. She bought an old horse from a lady whose husband died. (It was his horse) She knew this man and his horse for years. A great horse indeed, had all the bells and whistles etc. Anyway, she used one of her bits on him and the horse wouldn't move, no matter what. So finally, out of ideas, she called the lady and asked if she could buy the horse's old bridle. It turned out to have a long shanked curb bit attached to it, which the horse absolutely did not need. To make a long story short, she bridled him up and he was wonderful with his old bit. It had all the familiar groves in it that he made with his own teeth etc. (Remember he was just going to follow another horse, the rider wasn't going to have to steer him much at all.) I guess to him it was just what he was used to.
- Thread starter
- #20
big brown horse
Hoof In Mouth
Farmfresh said:Plus don't forget fashion AND the "correct bit for the breed" folks.
I trained quite a few Tennessee Walking Horses back when I was training and I would have them working perfectly, lightly, in a simple old O ring snaffle, but when the owners got back involved, almost every time, they would be put in a long shanked and thus quite severe "Walking Horse" bit.
Also as far as other horses go, I have see certain bits be "THE" bit - every one needs to ride with one on those. "THE" bit to correct head too high, too low, too ... well it is just magic! Right.
Fads and fashions come and go and money is thrown at horses to replace skill. Of course non of that really works in the long run.
I do think it is important to understand the mechanics of a bit ... as best as we can. I also agree 110% that equipment should only be an aid. Nothing - not a bit, not a tie down or any other device - can make up for poor training and poor horsemanship. A true horseman needs very little to communicate his wishes to his horse and a true horseman will have a horse that WANTS to please.
