How many have actually made the change?

[moolie]

I think alot of times we put a label on it and think if you don't hit these requirements you can't be SS. We tell new people to the board all the time that anyone can be more SS. You do what you can with what you have. Most can't afford a farm. Some have health requirements that limit them. But if you have 'any' land at your residence you can certainly put in a small garden. You can recycle/reuse/repurpose more as people have done over centuries. You can support local farms to be sure that local food is thriving in your area.

Thank you for your post, particularly this part. I don't think it can be repeated enough.

People who chose to change how they live, to become less wasteful of resources and more aware of how they walk on the earth are "making the change" in their thinking and their everyday doing.

And it's a learning process for everyone, those of us who were brought up to it, and those who weren't. I learned wonderful lessons about how to live a good life from my parents and grandparents, but I certainly don't remember everything about what they did and now my grandparents are all gone (my Oma passed away in August) and my parents are in retirement mode and can't remember specific details about growing a garden or pruning apple trees or canning peaches so I have to avail myself of other sources for information. Like this forum.

For the new members here, it can be so overwhelming to contemplate how to "get there" when they arrive here all fired up to change their lives.

But it's a process, and everyone is at a different place with it.

And we all have much to learn from each other

 

[moolie]

Hey Icu4dzs, I'm very sorry to hear that your city experience was a bad one. And I understand a little of your motivation to live the life you do.

Not every place is the same, and where I live my neighborhood is not much different to the small towns in which I grew up (we moved a lot so there were a few). My kids have grown up the same way I did in those small towns, while living in a city that has grown from 800,000 to over a million during their short teenage lifetimes. And they've been safe and happy as we've lived our "ss" lifestyle here in the city. And they're learning how to live the same good life that we live when they strike out on their own one day, they're not materialistic or caught up in fads or worried about what other people think of them because they've had a good grounding in life and have strong faith--we're constantly amazed and very proud of who they are turning out to be. But I digress, as Moms often do when it comes to their kids.

If "making the change" doesn't mean buying the land and starting from scratch like the pioneers of yesterday, I guess I don't understand the question. But for me, the most important "change" to make is to decide to live sustainably. And for me that includes living in community with others and sharing the loads we each bear, rather than holing up by myself prepared for some invisible coming doom. Because I chose to "live" life each day, rather than spend all my time planning and preparing for the unknown.

I'm off to make waffles for our Saturday morning family breakfast and then we're off to go skating together. Because it's a beautiful day and meant for enjoying.

 

[~gd]

Hey TRIM Just want to say that I doubt the nukes Will get us. Much more likely to be a BIO attack. What really ended WWI ? consider the flu that was spreading out of control. Of course there was AIDS that killed/kills more Than all the nucks combined. Was it just a year ago that bird flu showed just how well the government could protect against Bio and that was just a natural Flu. I don't know what things were like in SD but it was not SNAFU in NC. more like AFU no SN at all. ~gd

 

[Icu4dzs]

Well, since Moolie lives in Canada I do understand her approach. I have visited Canada and the cities I was able to experience certainly did make me much more comfortable than what I experienced in the cities in the USA. I only hope that quality of life continues to be true for all Canadians.

~gd, certainly I agree Bioterrorism is a much more likely scenario given the currently known delivery systems, but as we all know the folks who hate us are not only very intelligent but immensely creative and extremely patient with respect to their approach..."Pick you battles" "Strike while the iron is hot" "Make Hay while the sun shines." They take their philosophy from the IRA who would tell the British..."We only have to be lucky once in a while; YOU have to be lucky EVERY DAY!"

Hence, my concern. Who would have imagined fully loaded passenger airliners crashing into tall buildings also filled with people, taking over 3000 KIA and losing less than 50 of their own? From a military planning perspective, they have us over a barrel on issues such as that. They are interested in increasing that type of ratio by magnitudes of order. We on the other hand believe we are taking the "moral high road" and avoiding killing that type of numerical statistic but we seem to be only killing "civilians" over in Iraq and Afghanistan because they don't have any uniformed soldiers. How do we know who or what we are fighting unless they are holding a gun when we find their body? Makes it difficult to sort out the issue. Apparently, we think war has rules and they don't. They can behead and torture our soldiers that they capture and kill and gut them and hang them from a bridge but if a few of our immature adolescents urinate on their corpses the liberals begin to shudder with disdain. There is a difference. You may notice we haven't bombed Mecca during the Hajj. Anyone want to venture a guess what kind of ire something like that would raise? This is all a game. We are being duped by folks who think we are expendable. It is time we, the American people stood up and refused to tolerate the propaganda perpetrated by the folks who wage war against us and pretend to be righteously indignant regarding their atrocities.

We can manage disease. We can manage a lot of things, but if the ratio becomes significantly higher, in a place that has even more impact on the way we live, my guess is that we'd have some really difficult times ahead. Just MHO, no proof of any of it to support.

I really didn't want to "hijack" my own string, but I think we should "return to our regularly scheduled programming" before some one's sensibilities get "damaged".

As for our approach to what we do, you are all right. It is a process and a calling regardless of how and where we answer it. Some, like the city and to them I say, good on ya. I honestly believed the city would work, but found it didn't. Not because the city as a whole didn't work, but the people who work are NOT welcome by the folks who WON'T work.
Makes it hard to find a common ground.

Some of us have become a bit more "assertive" in our approach to these issues by leaving the city and finding refuge where we feel comfortable, safe and happy. There is no right or wrong answer to any of my questions. There is only WHY you do what you do. Why I picked after 2008 is because of the things I saw that were increasing in velocity and decreasing in the parameters I found to be benchmarks of desirability.

There are as many answers to each of the questions as there are grains of sand on the collective beaches on the earth. I just like to "talk" to folks here and share ideas. If anyone doesn't agree with anything I say, that is fine and I often find that my logic may be flawed but at least, I put my thoughts out on the line. Anyone can reply, disagree or agree as they choose. No one is right 100% of the time, or even 50% of the time because there will always be someone who disagrees and can support their position. Personally, that is the essence of debate that I enjoy the best.
Saepe Expertus, Semper Fidelis, Fratres Aeterni
Trim Sends

//bt//

 

[FarmerChick]

well that is it in a nutshell. because of our personal experiences thru our lives we are going to be swayed one way or another and that can be radically different from another person. so 'who is right'--eh, no one but me

 

[Joel_BC]

Well, since Moolie lives in Canada I do understand her approach. I have visited Canada and the cities I was able to experience certainly did make me much more comfortable than what I experienced in the cities in the USA. I only hope that quality of life continues to be true for all Canadians.

Just thought I'd comment on this part. Canada is a big country, geographically, and pretty varied economically, socially, and even philosophically. Something that concerns me is a complacency that can easily come - especially during affluent periods - from convenience and technology. I mean, we have plenty of young people who have become aimless, but who are able to get fed, clothed, and sheltered (perhaps in Mom's basement suite?). They can get frozen supermarket quick food, so long as someone in the house can afford to buy it for them. They can be sufficiently entertained with TV and the internet. No particular career path. Outside of digital fun (entertainment, and possibly a bit of hacking ), their skills are few.

That can be a pattern that can somehow seem socially affordable during normal economic times. But (since jobs are harder to get when times are tough) the likelihood of young people like that vigorously hunting down and getting jobs these days has become slimmer.

This doesn't describe young people in general, these days... it's hard to generalize. In my wife's and my extended family in the western part of the country, we have some younger relatives like that, and some who are much more committed, trained, and vigorous.

There's lots that's good about Canada, but our hardy pioneer days are a couple generations behind us... further behinds us, in some regions.

 

[Icu4dzs]

After looking through a variety of posts, I found this string which, if I am not too far off, is pretty much the same sort of question I asked. So, I'm a bit wordy...this one is a bit less so.
http://www.sufficientself.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=2792
Since this thread and that one are so closely aligned, I thought it might be interesting to read them both and see what the answers show.

One thing that continues to come through in a number of posts is the continual perception that some of us have this overwhelming "need to be right" about our choices rather than to experience what each other is doing. Does anyone want to comment on that as an explanation for why we do what we do? Is "being right" important in any way for the purposes of this discussion? To me, the answer is no, not really. One poster said "this is really just a big book and we are all pages in that book. I liked her approach...

This isn't a question of right/wrong. It is, however more a question of "What and Why?"

We have people who live in cities, people who live in the country, people who live on farms and people who live in quite austere surroundings, all with at least one commonality (the ability to communicate on the Internet) and the thing that occurs to me is that "Where" you live really isn't the issue as much as "how" you choose to live. No one has too much money, at least no one I know or have met. We all (by and large) work, and do what we have to do to feed our family, clothe them, educate them and provide for their emotional and spiritual needs.

Regardless of how we see ourselves, whether we are living in an apartment in the inner city, out on a farm, or out in the wild killing bears and sewing clothing with their dried tendons, the point is that there is a common thread (thought process or motivation, if you will) in all of this and that appears to have as yet be defined in some concrete way. But I think we would agree that there IS something there.

What is also interesting is that this "mindset" or way of thinking is to some extent unique to a smaller subset of the population of our country and our immediate neighbor to the north who shares our common border. Not only that but it appears to be growing in number.

While life is different everywhere you go, there are some special similarities that we all share that bind us into some form of cohesive way of thinking. Each of us came to this way of thinking from some different perspective but we all reached pretty much the same conclusions and that is the NEED for such a way of life. Is it because it is "simpler" or because it is less expensive or because we have some special desire to plant a garden or because we just like animals, or any group of a million reasons. The end result is that we are here and we CHOOSE to be here, mentally and emotionally (physically is a completely different can of worms).

The more I think about these things and the more I learn about the motivation of others the more I see that this particular way of thinking, while not all that unique, is growing in size and strength. There is some driving force which motivates us to think this way, regardless of how it is manifested by any number of limiting parameters be they financial, family ties, health concerns, etc. What keeps coming out though is some defensive emotions based on the feelings that while we might prefer to do things in some other way, our current choices do not permit it. One of us has a signature line to that effect..."Current choices to not define ability" or words to that effect. What he is saying is that just because we are doing one thing, whether because we have to or are in the middle of some pursuit, our REAL motivation might be in some completely different direction.

Many of us in these strings do mention the belief that our local social structures are strong enough to support each other in the event of some overwhelming changes. That is one thing I am hearing from some of you. This is of course, the best news we can possibly have...the fact that we as neighbors care about each other and will do what it takes to work to mutually assure our common survival in the face of immense adversity. How comforting, REALLY comforting. What we don't know is what percentage of the population actually thinks like this. The rancor about the difference between living in the city and elsewhere is probably the result of the thought that city dwellers for the most part may NOT be all that motivated to help each other in adversity because there just hasn't really been any severe adversity in this nation for many years. Perhaps WW II was the last time people were asked to sacrifice in some way in order to promote the benefit of our country and its common goal to remain free of aggression from an outside force.

BUT, our population has changed. We have many more folks from many more countries who have NOT been tested in such circumstances. They have in many cases come here in the last 30 years and do not share the same concerns that folks who have been here much longer share. Our world has changed. Our country has changed. We can with the help of the internet communicate with practically anyone on the earth as long as they have access to the Internet. Folks who cant afford food will do what they have to do to communicate with the rest of the world. The Arab Spring is a good example of this.

People who have come to this country may NOT have come here for the exact same reasons our Founding Fathers came here. They sought religious freedom, freedom from oppression, and a whole new way of life. I don't imagine they all came here because the standard of living was like it is now. Many of them suffered immeasurably to eek out a living in the wild unknown rather than live in cities where there was little or no opportunity. Some of them had the skills and knowledge and some of them had to be very quick studies and learn those things. In either case, there may not be the same motivation for the folks who have come here in the past 30 years. Each has some idea as to why they wanted to come here but the end result is that they are here now and we are all going to have to find a way to integrate them into our culture rather than allow them force us to adopt the culture from which they came. That to me is the most difficult concept to date.

Do we as Americans have the emotional and psychological strength to make this leap of adaptation? Or is our SS frame of mind the outward and visible sign of our resistance to change from what we think to what the new folks want?

One of the things I am noticing here is that many of you admit to being Grandparents and also admit to the yearnings of the '60's when we were young and full of vinegar and believed we could change the world to make it a better place. Despite the wars that have happened since those days, none of the changes we have seen in our nation have been the result of a severe and overwhelming disaster to our way of life such as has happened to other places. We have NOT had war in our land since 1865 and that is quite a statement in the terms of the history of the world. While we have had our squabbles and disagreements, we have NOT taken up arms against our countrymen in the open. Yes, it does happen in areas of our country where crime is rampant, but overall, our nation has lived without the threat of nationwide violence since the end of the civil war.

Whether we can sustain that for any length of time is anyone's guess. How long we can avoid TSHTF is still a mystery to all of us, but the more I read here and the more I talk to folks in my own area, the more concerned they appear to be about something like that happening again. What forces are pushing in that direction and what forces are pushing back against that is the question of the century and while I would love to know the answer, I don't.

So, what if any ideas do you SS'ers out there have to explain the "movement" toward the SS mentality, regardless of where it is conducted AND what do you think explains not only your reasoning for wanting to be SS but what explains the forces pushing in those two directions that are managing to hold our world in some form of balance which prevents the proverbial "EOTWAWKI?"
Trim sends
//BT//

 

[nikki4612]

I suppose my move to a more self-sufficient life began while I was still living in the New Orleans suburbs it started with an interest in the voluntary simplicity concept and a move away from so much materialism. I was lucky enough to live in an affluent part of town and yet saw that many of my neighbors seemed to be unhappy and stressed. They were busy chasing things and status. Then Katrina hit and everyone from the inhabitants of the mansions on Northline Avenue ($2-20 million dollar homes) to the lower 9th ward slums, were all homeless and without possesions. For anyone who wasn't there, it's really incomprehensible what it is like for 1.5 million people to become homeless in one day.

We're used to seeing disasters on tv. But unlike Katrina, they tend to be localized and short lived. I spoke at a conference a year later and people asked questions that showed they really didn't understand. They seemed shocked that we couldn't just go to a hotel. When I explained that you coud drive 100 miles north in Mississpi before you found a building standing and undamaged, I could see the shock on their faces. When I told them that a year later, thousands of people were still living in tents, cars, and shelters, some began to cry. They couldn't believe that this could happen in America. What they saw on tv was the sensational not the reality for most of us. They also believed that the government came and fixed things. Not true. Six years later I have yet to meet anyone who got a dime from the government. I'm sure someone did but I haven't met them yet.

What we learned is that we can only rely on our God, our families, and ourselves in times of disaster. But we also learned that becoming self-sufficient is a gift. No "thing" will ever feel as good as being debt free and self-reliant. Knowing that you can make it even after losing your home, your possessions, your job, and even family members, is not an experience I would wish for another person. But it has made me stronger, more confident in my faith and myself.

I now live in a small agricultural community. I grow my garden, can my veggies, dehydrate, do food storage, cherish my friends and family, and buy only local items. We only buy what we can afford and we are happy. We take great pleasure in going to the library, shopping at the farmer's market, and just being home together. Do I have a farm? No. I have an acre and a house. Am I totally self-sufficient,? No, but I'm also not a slave to material things. I am much more self-sufficient than I would have been and I continue to increase my skills.

I hope this forum has room for someone like me. I may never have 100 acres with cows and chickens. But I know I can make it through just about anything that comes my way.

 

[TheMartianChick]

Warning: Another lengthy post ahead!

I was raised on a small hobby farm in Central NY. We always had animals and a lot of my friends and neighbors did, too. My parents kept a well-stocked pantry because there were no stores that were really close by. They had both been raised during the Depression.When I turned 18, I wanted to be more worldly and sophisticated, so I moved to a city to attend college and managed to fool just about everybody into thinking that I was a just another upscale city girl. Every so often, my true colors would show and I'd roll up my sleeves and do some task that eve city guys didn't want to do. It didn't take long for me to realize that I didn't want to spend the rest of my life pretending that the first half of my life didn't exist.

Over the years, we had our fair share of bad snowstorms and thunderstorms, but we never lost power for more than a few hours at a time. The power NEVER went out during a blizzard, so it sort of lulled us all into thinking that nothing bad could happen to our city services. That all changed in 1998. After a summer of almost no rain, we were hit by a derecho on Labor Day morning. The wind was so strong that rain was literally pushed through the siding of the house and leaked into our living room. When the storm had passed, we went outside to find our dogs. They had been tethered outside. The tiny city backyard looked as though the top portion of every tree in the neighborhood had landed in our backyard. Power was out for over a week and the weather was unusually chilly at night.

This was our first hard lesson in providing for our children under bad conditions. City water was still working, but we had no hot water. We had a gas stove for cooking and yet we couldn't get the oven to light to use for backup heating. Our old brick fireplace was inefficient under optimal circumstances and our situation was far from optimal: I hadn't ordered firewood for the winter, yet. Our backyard was full of downed branches and tree tops and yet, we had no seasoned wood to burn to warm the house!

A few days later we had to return to work, though the situation really hadn't improved much. I managed a fairly large group of people who had also weathered the storm. By that time FEMA had set up a center where you could go file a claim for the things that you lost. I remember scheduling everyone so that they could go and still have coverage for the office. Many had lost freezers full of food or had downed limbs on their cars. My employees asked when I was going to go. (They'd already heard the stories about the downed trees and such.) I just brushed aside their concerns The truth was that I didn't want to admit to anyone that we'd only lost about $12 worth of food that spoiled in the fridge. We had gotten in the habit of shopping almost daily for supplies. We had some odds and ends in the cabinet but we didn't have any of the stuff we really wanted.

That storm was a turning point for me. We installed a fireplace insert to make the fireplace more efficient and began ordering our wood in the summer. We also began stocking our cabinets and keeping a more reasonable amount of food in the fridge. I even went back to gardening on a small scale. A couple of years after that, we got the opportunity to purchase the empty lot next door...and the next one over. When combined with the rental property that we owned on the other side of us, it gave us 3/4 of an acre to turn into an urban homestead. Since that time, we've invested in the tools, training and know how to be able to do the things that we do. We have chickens and quail for eggs and have the potential for raising the quail for meat, too. We've installed a lot of permaculture into the property in the form of asparagus, raspberries, herbs, mulberries, lambsquarters and potatoes. Yep...around here, potatoes are permaculture since I get lots of volunteers from spuds that I failed to harvest.

While we consider ourselves to be urban farmers and homesteaders because of our frugal ways, we just aren't finished yet. We plan to move to a farm once the kids are out of college. That means a couple more years of city living. When we move, we'll carry our skills, knowledge and plant starts with us. One more thing that we'll take with us is the ability to earn a living without relying on a job. This area of NY has lost a lot of jobs over the years. That didn't start in 2008. Our city is an old rust belt city and it has been shedding manufacturing jobs since the 1970's. Since getting married over 20 years ago, Hubby and I have purchased rental properties to provide a supplemental income. Houses can be quite inexpensive in this area. Over the past 10 years, I've counseled a lot of small business owners in the course of my career and have built a nice little side business to supplement my paycheck. I've also been writing for agricultural magazines and now, I'm writing novels. I can work from anywhere, but once we have our farm, I don't want to have to commute a long distance to get to an office each day.

Self-sufficiency is a train that a lot of people have gotten on in recent years and everyone has something that caused them to get on board. However, the need for self-sufficiency did not begin in 2008 or when the current crop of politicians came into office. In fact, it isn't even political. Despite writing stories about the end of the world as we know it, I really do not fear thattype of thing. My concerns stem from my belief that the world will keep on ticking and that we must be capable of making our way in it. I prepare for the things that I know will happen: bad weather, natural disaster, job loss or illness. Once you have the basics covered, they will support you in almost any situation.

 

[Beekissed]

Self-sufficiency is a train that a lot of people have gotten on in recent years and everyone has something that caused them to get on board. However, the need for self-sufficiency did not begin in 2008 or when the current crop of politicians came into office. In fact, it isn't even political. Despite writing stories about the end of the world as we know it, I really do not fear that type of thing. My concerns stem from my belief that the world will keep on ticking and that we must be capable of making our way in it. I prepare for the things that I know will happen: bad weather, natural disaster, job loss or illness. Once you have the basics covered, they will support you in almost any situation.