local currency and social change...

[Icu4dzs]

Trim, a large part of me agrees with what you've posted here. (And a portion of that "part" is the 'myself' that volunteers and helps neighbors, and has done so most of my life... the other portion of the "part" is the aspect that respects "do-ers" more than lay-abouts.)

On the other hand, the aspect of the local currency idea that is appealing to me has to do with this scenario: Let's say that many good and skilled people live in a locality. Let's say that the underpinnings of the local economy - for example, mining and forest products - have withered. Let's say that a sizable portion of the people like one another, and are friendly with one another... and that they also like the local topography, flora and fauna, lakes and rivers... and they want to stay in the community. In fact, they are extremely reluctant to leave, and there is not much guarantee of finding a decent-paying job matched to their skills anyplace else. These people want to be able to exchange goods and services in some sort of reciprocity. (Some, of course, will be willing to be "good neighbors" of a Biblical sort, with no thought of compensation, while some will not.) But everyone understands a "medium of exchange".

To me, the appeal of the concept is clear - and I'd say it's not very socialistic, but more market oriented.

I'd endorse it heartily... except I haven't seen it work out in reality. Not here, anyway. Not in my locality.

But in my observations, the reason for it not working out doesn't seem so much human nature as the limited immediate diversity of skill sets and the limited availability of certain sorts of raw materials and manufacturing.

Joel,
Somehow it appears that the argument we are making fails to differentiate the free market concept from the idea of socialism. I don't think we can keep those in the same level and have it work. Of course everyone understands a medium of exchange. That's why we have what we call "money." if a person chooses to use their skills, regardless of what that skill is, to help his neighbor then this makes sense.

Now if we look at the possibility of using their marketable skill in some way and try to tell them that their marketable skill is no more valuable than the much less marketable skills by somebody who doesn't work very well you are not going to get them to cooperate for very long. You may get them to cooperate once or twice but certainly not on a reliable or steady basis.

Further, you are going to dilute their motivation to take on a much more difficult task or set of marketable skills. Certain skills take a great deal more time to learn than other skills. It is not reasonable to assume therefore that ones less difficult skill is as valuable as the more difficult skill based on the amount of time it takes to acquire it. No one would even begin to believe that if it takes 10 years to learn one's profession at great cost as well as loss of income during those 10 years that that performing a job that takes no time at all to learn is equal in value. If that were the case, everybody would be filling bags at the grocery market and nobody would be doing surgery.

This is not to say that I do not agree with having every body in the area help each other so that they can continue to have some form of viable life. On the other hand it is important to realize that everybody has to work just as hard as everybody else in order to preserve the welfare and benefit of the entire community. If each person does the job for which they are trained to help everybody in the community survive, life will be a great deal better for everybody. However once you remove the motivation to do better, things begin to deteriorate rapidly.
Trim sends
//BT//

 

[Joel_BC]

In a market framework, some skills or expertise may be worth more than others, yes. However, the only thing that is addressed in most local-currency systems that I've been at all familiar with is the overall lack of national currency within the local situation. The local currency proposes to offer an alternative or compensatory medium of exchange. In the most recent local-currency system tried in my area, prices were not set by anyone other than the person offering the goods/services.

So I see the topic as existing apart from the issues of compensation rates and incentives.

If we're just looking at the theoretical aspect of this, definitely you could have a local currency operating within a libertarian-capitalist framework.

 

[Icu4dzs]

I am not in disagreement with the idea of the currency but the perception that all work ALWAYS HAS THE SAME VALUE!
If you are doing gardening work regardless od your chosen profession, then yes, gardening can have a fixed value. That makes sense. But to say that bagging groceries is the same value as a mechanical engineer, etc. would NOT Work. Human nature being what it is would immediately come into play and technological advancement and learning would cease and you will fill the streets with screaming protestors every time some "injustice"is perceived by some theocrat like you see in the middle east. Don't those people have to go to work? I sure do. I don't have time to run around in the streets all day and protest whatever they are told to protest.

Then you would have a whole new set of problems on your hands. A "truly local currency" would invite the ire of the federal government who claims to have the sole right to issue currency and who already intrudes and interferes with our lives to an intolerable degree. How do you propose to deal with the issues of the oppressive levels of taxation that are forced upon working people to allow the politicians to have so much "free money" to give away to those who won't work? When you consider that there is no transaction between people that is not being taxed by the Feds this would invite more than just a little "concern"! You'd have troops in no time after the administration (currently in office) finds out what is going on. You may remember the story of "peeping Tom". Even though you think you know your "friends" you will find that there is a "Judas iscariot" in the crowd somewhere.

I agree Libertarians would support this but the Feds ( readoliticians who are holding our governmental system hostage) would have a field day crying things like "sedition, foul, etc." because they would have to explain that the American people no longer support their outrageous mismanagement of our national treasury! Why is it a crime to lie to them but not a crime for them to lie to us? Just think of what the coming dictatorship that has already begun to show itself would say?

If illegal aliens can invade our country passively and deplete our finances by claiming they are poor, what rights do we as tax paying citizens retain? They can qualify for all these federal programs that give out free money and working people can't qualify. I have a BIG PROBLEM with that approach. Illegal aliens are ILLEGAL, AND TO TRY TO SOFTEN THE SPIN BY CALLING THEM UNDOCUMENTED IS IMHO the soft, brown waste material excreted by the male of the bovine species!

Did you see that the SCOTUS upheld Arizona's Right to defend their borders from ILLEGAL ALIEN INVASION? Read the argument Justice Scalia made regarding bank robbers. He is SPOT ON and the bleeding' heart liberals who are using the illegal alien vote to swing their elections are really upset. I'll bet they will even threaten Scalia's life or position because they are so intent on pushing their "Progressive" (read:communist/dictatorship) doctrine which the current POTUS learned from Saul Alinsky.

Your tax payment on your return should be your voter registration, and your qualification for ANY SOCIAL PROGRAM IN THIS COUNTRY, PERIOD! you don't pay taxes, you don't get money from the national treasury...no exceptions.

Then we'll see how much you work is truly worth!
Trim sends
//BT//

 

[Joel_BC]

I am not in disagreement with the idea of the currency but the perception that all work ALWAYS HAS THE SAME VALUE!

Fair enough.

I'd say most of us can think back to the first jobs we had at age 13, 14, whatever. We were probably paid a pretty low rate, and likely the rate was fair. Then education/training, work experience, skills development, maturity, judgment, a personal history of reliability (or not), and other factors enter into the picture over time. And most people would agree that these are extremely important factors. So, even by this simple example, we can see that not all "work" is of equal value.


Besides the above philosophical point, though, my comments have been based mainly on our most recent local experience, in the mid 1990s. (I was not living here when the earilier alternative-currency attempt was tried.) In my opinion, though, the most recent one's failure wasn't due to a bad philosophy but to the factors I mentioned at the end of post #10 in this thread.

 

[Icu4dzs]

Well, then the solution is to start a school for "sustainable living skills" that could be attended by all ages able to do meaningful work based on age and physical ability as well as ability to grasp the concepts.
We, on this forum probably have either all or most of those skills in our heads, but the most important gift we can leave as a legacy to the future is to ensure that those skills are perpetuated in the generations to follow!
The questions now are:
1. What should such a curriculum contain?
2. Who would teach such a curriculum?
3. Where would the school be set up/built?
4. How would such an endeavor be funded?
5. How/who would administer all the obscene amounts of government regulations and interferences that would attempt to prevent such a school?

Just a few of my many ideas... What are your ideas?
Trim sends
//BT//

 

[Joel_BC]

Well, then the solution is to start a school for "sustainable living skills" that could be attended by all ages able to do meaningful work based on age and physical ability as well as ability to grasp the concepts.
We, on this forum probably have either all or most of those skills in our heads, but the most important gift we can leave as a legacy to the future is to ensure that those skills are perpetuated in the generations to follow!
The questions now are:
1. What should such a curriculum contain?
2. Who would teach such a curriculum?
3. Where would the school be set up/built?
4. How would such an endeavor be funded?
5. How/who would administer all the obscene amounts of government regulations and interferences that would attempt to prevent such a school?

This woud be an exercise of imagination... since, on the physical level, we all live in different places, stretching all over the map of North America.

Maybe people here would want to engage in thinking it through and posting about their ideas. But I'd suggest starting another thread for this topic, as it will lead away from the local-currency topic of this thread.