Permaculture help

[CJ1]

Okay. So I need some advise.

If like to experiment with permaculture and its a subject that I know very little about.

I'm thinking of planting more raspberry bushes using hugelkulture. I already have three bushes planted by my front porch. But I'd really like to plant more. After estimating my consumption of fruit I realize I am going to need to grow a lot more.

In addition to raspberries I'm going to need Many more strawberry bushes and I'd love to start growing kiwis as well.

First off what type of wood do you folks think I should use? I've read a great deal on the subject. But I keep getting conflicting answers. I have access to a bunch of downed cherry pine and a few oak trees that we cleared out to plant my guy's food plot. But half the sources I've read said not to use pine and the other half said pine is fine. Other sources say that while cherry is great for plants cause it's decay tends not to suck nitrogen from the soil, it is toxic to animals. What animals? Worms?

I was hoping to cut and split the oak for firewood. But can certainly forgo that in favor of having tons of fruit to eat and ferment into wine.

Also will the three types of plant I'd like to grow over them be compatible with each other? Will the strawberries do ok with the grass and what not that will be growing around it or should I simply increase the size of my fruit garden that I maintain and keep weed free?

Space really isn't an issue. I have plenty of room so I could plant them all on their own mounds.

Also. Are there any other plants that I should plant along with them to compliment their growth and health?

Also Xtwothousand. I'd like to plant a couple acres of black walnut sometime in the future. Is this a method that would help them as well?

Yeah I know that's a lot of questions. But I appreciate any advise.

 

[Amiga]

Okay, superb questions!

I have made a hugelkultur bed with hardwood, so I have no experience with the pine. I can see that some would say that pine has tannins and sap that would not be good for growing. At the same time, I wonder if these folks have actually tried it. No offense. (c;

If it were me, here is what I might do: I would use the pine as the first layer, and get a meter or so of other, non-pine material on top of that. Brush trimmings, punk (rotting) hardwood, inverted sod, old hay or straw, hardwood chips. Top with a layer of compost, or for the berries, make holes in the bed and fill in with compost at planting time.

Using fresh wood, there will be a lag - even a drop - in available nitrogen around the logs as the microbes that break them down draw the nitrogen to be able to decompose the wood. The larger the logs, the longer the breakdown time. And that is not a bad thing - it will mean a longer release of nutrients over time, and longer for the bed to settle.

Oak will have some tannins, too, but less sap.

So the pH should be on the low side with either the pine or the oak, and that should be okay for the raspberries. I haven't grown many strawberries - so check the pH requirements there. Their roots are shallow enough that if you have a bed as described above, the logs shouldn't pose a major problem, seems to me.

By the way, I received a Permaculture Design Certificate in 2014, started a forest garden in 2011 (and continue to nurture it), grow cane berries, and a few other things. Just so you can decide how much salt to take my ideas with

Sepp Holzer seems to have done quite a bit of experimenting in his many years, so please bear in mind that experimenting is a time-honored concept in Permaculture as well as other disciplines.

My hardy kiwis (Actinidia spp) grow right next to, and therefore at times upon, my raspberries. So the only problem I have there is paying attention to keep the kiwi from overrunning the raspberries. Not difficult at all. Just know that happy kiwi gets big and beautiful. I have most of the kiwi - wait, no, maybe half - growing on a cedar post arbor. It makes a living grotto in the summer. Love it!

Strawberries - I always think of them with asparagus for some reason...

I am not expert on companion planting and guilds, but I have tried some things.

I would want nitrogen-fixers in with my shrubs. Some that I use are hopniss (Apios americana), hog peanut - I don't name them, it's not a peanut - (Amphicarpea bracteata), and if clover volunteers I let it stay as long as it doesn't try to shove my food plants out of the way.

I'll send this along now...we could talk Permaculture all day and I'd be happy. But my ducks would be supremely annoyed.

 

[Amiga]

And flowers - especially early bloomers - near the beds. I have little islands of goldenrod and aster here and there at my little place. These attract birds and beneficial insects.

 

[CJ1]

Ok thank you. Please feel free to talk all day about it.

My friend works at the proofing grounds and said he could get me a backhoe to use. So digging won't be hard.

I didn't see anything in either of your posts about the cherry wood.

 

[Amiga]

Right . . . lost track of that.

Cherry has some cyanins / cyanide. That's a nitrogen compound, and I believe it breaks down as the wood rots. By the way, people make bowls, spoons and ladles from cherry wood

The thing I would be most concerned with would be wilted leaves and twigs - if livestock eat those, I think they could become poisoned.

But going with the hugelkultur idea, if they are buried at the bottom of the bed, outside the root zone, you're probably in good shape.

Something many people I have spoken to lose track of is the different between having a material in the root zone, on top of the soil, or underneath the root zone.

 

[CJ1]

Ok thank you. Correct me if I'm wrong. But the only material that you should have in the root zone is things like leaves and straw or other things that the roots can push through correct?

 

[Amiga]

The best thing for the root zone is material that has already at least mostly composted, as well as some mineral components. Recognizable leaves, straw, and wood bits will still be using up more nitrogen than they release.

There are some seeming exceptions. When growing potatoes in a tower, one fills in straw or leaves as they grow. However, to my experience, the potato pieces used to start the plant sit on soil or in compost - and that's where the primary roots go to feed.

Some of the nitrogen draw of high-carbon material can be mitigated if material high in nitrogen is included. I am thinking cottonseed meal or blood meal. I have grown in a pile of used duck bedding by digging a hole, filling that with compost, and setting my winter squash plant in there. Over time, as the bedding broke down, the squash could send its roots through, and also down into the parent soil the bedding was sitting on. But I made sure it had a basic bucket of plant-usable organic material to get going.

 

[Mini Horses]

Wild cherry -- wilted leaves & the cherry pits can be toxic for many grazing animals. You mention Black Walnut trees and that is another toxic tree.....leaves & even the wood if used as chips where horses tread.

Quantities eaten have effect on the affect the plants have on them. Often they taste bitter and they leave them, then there is the oddball who LIKES the taste. Of course, if other forage is not available, guess what they eat? Some are just more "intensely" affected and a little can kill them.

 

[CJ1]

I currently and in the foreseeable future will only have iron horses on my property. So that's not an issue. But do have a couple goats and will likely have hogs in the future. Though it would be fairly simple to keep them away from those areas. Well not simple. But you see what I'm saying.

The black walnut will hopefully be a retirement find of sorts. I'm not really worried about deer getting to them as there are plenty of cornfields around and we will be maintaining several food plots that should provide well into the winter.

I do have access to lots of aged cow manure and have plenty of compost. So should I use that as the top blanket while I wait on the lower logs to begin to rot?

Also I'm assuming that I would dig in deeper if in were to plant trees using this method. How deep should I go for for the raspberries and what not? Or would I dig to the same depth regardless of what I'm planting on top?

I did walk around my woods a little after work and there are lots of downed and rotting poplar and other trees in there I could use for the upper layers of trees.

This is probably going to be an end of the summer project as instill have so much more information to research. But I'm excited and can't stop thinking about it.

 

[baymule]

I built a big hugel bed and the problem is keeping soil/mulch on it. I then dug a long trench on the outside of my garden fence, and laid logs in it. I have planted grapes on the fence, in front of the long hugel trench. I wouldn't build another tall hugel bed, but the sheep sure love to jump on top of it! Also, do not plant permanent trees on top of a hugel bed, because over time the bed will decompose and sink. I have two peach trees planted on either end of the big hugel bed. I have lots of dead trees, but will make shallow hugles. I like making the hugels using 1-3 logs in height, not the 5' tall one I made to start with.