Tell Me Why This is a BAD Idea

[k15n1]

DE may kill insects but it does NOT kill pathogens!

It has been found to be successful in worming applications. Also, it's drying properties would be useful in helping manures dry out faster, thereby depriving other pathogens of the moistures necessary for life.

I'm skeptical. I know a vet who says otherwise, at least in horses. Is this finding you mentioned actually documented or is it just truthy enough to re-post? You know what I mean? Like, it's not from personal experience but sounds right enough. I occasionally catch myself doing this too, so I'm not picking on you. I just wonder who actually found that it worked? What species? Were there other environmental conditions? Etc.

BTW, DE works fine for wheat storage in my experience. I had an outbreak of some moths in poorly stored wheat (ran out of airtight containers) and fixed it with DE and better packaging.

 

[bubba1358]

I have good experiences with DE for my sheep and donkey. Also i dust it on dog poo and the fly population goes way down. I have encountered many anecdotal sources that swear by it

There is this study: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/21673156/

It's not a 100% solution, but coupled with smart rotation, it makes parasite issues lessen

 

[Beekissed]

The primary problem with DE is that it's not specific, so it kills good with the bad. There are nematodes you are going to want left in those soils to keep a healthy balance but if you kill everything you have an imbalance that you will have to keep throwing DE on forever to keep the harmful microorganisms in check because you have killed off all their natural enemies or protagonists. It's a short term fix for a long term problem that requires that you continue to throw short term fixes at it to sustain a long term effect...and you are still left with soils that aren't the most healthy for growing things. Might as well use chemicals at that point.

 

[bubba1358]

I just re- read this whole thread. Sounds like the best defense against pathogen activity is simply time.

Somone had suggested running the chickens through first - would this cause a buildup of flies in the pig manure? I was thinking the chickens would handle the leftover seeds and maggots from the pigs but i do see the merit in giving the chicks fresh grass. Can i have my cake and eat it too on this?

Also - someone mentioned moving them so frequently might be dangerous. Could you elaborate please?

I think i will focus on alternate wormers. I hear garlic and black walnuts work well on hogs. I have lots of black walnuts here!

Anything else to consider?

Thanks everyone!!

 

[~gd]

I just re- read this whole thread. Sounds like the best defense against pathogen activity is simply time.

Somone had suggested running the chickens through first - would this cause a buildup of flies in the pig manure? I was thinking the chickens would handle the leftover seeds and maggots from the pigs but i do see the merit in giving the chicks fresh grass. Can i have my cake and eat it too on this?

Also - someone mentioned moving them so frequently might be dangerous. Could you elaborate please?

I think i will focus on alternate wormers. I hear garlic and black walnuts work well on hogs. I have lots of black walnuts here!

Anything else to consider?

Thanks everyone!!

Hens tend to quit laying if there are drastric changes they usually get over it in a week or so but if you move them every week the stress could cause a molt. I wouldn't think of it as being dangerous but it can be very inconvient.

 

[pinkfox]

new lot, chickens first,
they'll scratch eat the grubs and disturb the surface, chicken manure is VERY hot,this gives itloger to cook before planting.

then bring in the pigs, without surface gass to et they'll deeper rather than grazing, (pigs will graze if given the chance they don't tend to root until surface crop s gone) pig manure is typically dug in in the fall and considered safe to plant I by spring (as opposed to a lttle longer with chicken litter, ive heard an ideal of 3 months for pig, 5 oths for chicken)
as the pigs root they not only till but then mix the chicken manure (and their own) into the dirt (there natural tillers)
id give em at least a good month in the lot before moving them...
nd yes you will need 1-2 strands of leelctric for the pigs, they'll lift movale hog panels like a sheet of paper.

from my experience withrotting pigs for use as tillers is to have 4 beds, pigs go in bed 1 in le summer/ealy fall to prep for spring plantig, once bed 1 is tilled and fertilized over the fall for early spring crops...in winter move them to bed 2, they spend winter tilling and fertilizing your late spring/summer bed.
come spring move to bed 3 to prep for fall crops and then they spend the summer in bed 4 prepping it for your late fall/winter crops...
there are plenty of natural dewormers out there (walnut, pumpkin ect)

but generally chickens in first, then pigs to best take advantage of the pigs digging.

id also go for a smaller heritidge breed instead of commercial hogs for something like this, guinea hog, kune kune ect

 

[Beekissed]

People move chickens like this all the time in mobile tractor situations and don't lose any egg count or cause stress on the flock. The move is only several feet one way or the other, not to an entirely new coop, environment and flock social structure. Chickens are just not that delicate, so I wouldn't worry about that factor.

You can add charred wood to your hog worming program as well as Basic H soap to be placed in their water. Both work in different ways to rid the pigs of worms and the BH has the benefit of conditioning them as well. Feeding them pumpkins as an extra source of nutrition and also as a antihelmintic agent is another way to rid them of worms, particularly flukes, as it causes degenerative changes in the reproductive organs of these parasitic flatworms. Flukes are one of the bad boys of the livestock world, both for pigs and poultry.

You can also feed the pigs fermented feed grains, thus helping them get more benefit from the feed(an increase total protein by 12%), creating a healthier intestinal flora, decreasing the growth of harmful bacteria in the bowel and creating an acid environment that is more hostile to parasitical worms. It has the added benefit of also decreasing the smell of their feces and decreasing the total nitrogen expelled in the fecal matter, as the feed is predigested in the fermentation. This produces feces that are well on their way to composting before they ever hit the ground and won't burn the soils as badly with the production of ammonia as they degrade.

As for the soil, as soon as the pigs move off it, you can add a layer of sweet lime, plow it and plant your cover crop of buckwheat, winter wheat, sugar beets, or even clover that can then be plowed into the soils prior to planting time. Covering it as soon as possible so the bugs, worms and microorganisms that can utilize those nutrients can have habitat, the sooner the feces gets assimilated into the soil culture, binds with carbon and other elements to leave the soil more balanced for a good growing medium.

 

[bubba1358]

Bee, those are great ideas for worming.

Pink, how big are those areas?

I am planning on american guinea hogs. I like their characteristics and there are breeders near me.

 

[canesisters]

We were just discussing over on BYC that black walnut in/on the soil will stop anything else from growing.
Not sure if it still can do that once it passes through a pig's gut... but worth checking into...

Curious - you mentioned adding another animal... Is there some reason they have to rotate through one at a time??? Why not chickens & rabbits?? Then pigs & a donkey??

 

[bubba1358]

We were just discussing over on BYC that black walnut in/on the soil will stop anything else from growing.
Not sure if it still can do that once it passes through a pig's gut... but worth checking into...

Curious - you mentioned adding another animal... Is there some reason they have to rotate through one at a time??? Why not chickens & rabbits?? Then pigs & a donkey??

I did? Oops. No, pigs, chickens, and garden only on this one. I talked about possibly growing cover crops for other animals while letting the pathogens abate. I suppose i could add more species but i want to have a fairly high density of pigs (2-3 adults plus litters) and chickens (25-40)in those spaces.

But i appreciate the info on the black walnut. I will def look into that further.