Thinking about dipping my toe into homeschooling....

[the simple life]

I am not sure about that, I don't know where you live but they don't have more that 15 children in any of my childrens' classes.I
f a child is recognized to have a social deficit or any deficit for that matter they implement individual programs for them or an IEP Indvidual Education Program.
Its actually the law that they meet with you to discuss your concerns, they have to evaluate your child , meet with you again to discuss the results of the eval. and then design and carry out a program with your input.
This would involve the everyday schedule of your child, it involves exactly what the child needs.
It can mean that your child is assigned a lunchroom buddy that will sit and interact with your child. It could involve a classroom aide going outside with your child at recess and guiding them in social interactions with the other children.
It can involve work with a specialist that sets up scenarios of social situations for the child to work through etc.
IEPs also get into all other aspects of any deficit,delay or disability a child may have including speech, occupational therapy, physical therapy and other therapies.

 

[Okiemommy]

I am not sure about that, I don't know where you live but they don't have more that 15 children in any of my childrens' classes.I
if a child is recognized to have a social deficit or any deficit for that matter they implement individual programs for them or an IEP Indvidual Education Program.
Its actually the law that they meet with you to discuss your concerns, they have to evaluate your child , meet with you again to discuss the results of the eval. and then design and carry out a program with your input.
This would involve the everyday schedule of your child, it involves exactly what the child needs.
It can mean that your child is assigned a lunchroom buddy that will sit and interact with your child. It could involve a classroom aide going outside with your child at recess and guiding them in social interactions with the other children.
It can involve work with a specialist that sets up scenarios of social situations for the child to work through etc.
IEPs also get into all other aspects of any deficit,delay or disability a child may have including speech, occupational therapy, physical therapy and other therapies.

I live in Oklahoma. They may do that here for social deficits, they may not. I know that they have IEP's but I was told that my son does not qualify to be on an IEP b/c he is extremely intelligent, regardless of the fact that he has ADHD. They don't disagree that he has it; they were instrumental in identifying it. But they looked at me and blatantly said, "I know he needs help, but we just don't have any programs in place here for what he needs. I'm sorry." This helps illustrate my point in the categorization of children in public school actually: Here, Many children that are just barely under qualifications for needing help(in my son's case, b/c he doesn't have a learning disability), are left in an in-between category, and don't get help- unless the parent is willing/able/perserverant enough to do something about it. And let me say that it does take an amazing amount of perserverance. I live in a region where it is popular to sweep things under the rug and act like things "aren't that bad" and tragically that permeates our school systems, department of human services; well just about everything.

When I was in school I once had 42 kids in one class. That was just two under the reoccuring max. It seems to be better now, b/c my son last year had 22, his Kindergarten year he had 27. In the school district that we have moved to it is more crowded than that, so we have yet to see how many kids will be in his class.

My intention definitely was not to attack public schools. I went to public schools, and I really don't like the idea of my kids not doing things like prom and such. I LOVED school and everything about it. I'm sorry if I made it sound like I was attacking public schools. But whether it's 15 or 40 it would seem like homeschooling would give more individualized attention b/c the ratio of teacher to student is smaller. Not that I believe it's set in stone, or that public schools aren't better for some children. I think some children could definitely do better in public schools.

 

[patandchickens]

I guess I should clarify that for my son in particular, it is not that he is massively socially disabled or anything; he just has not got Clue One about how to make friends, approach strangers, respond to new peoples' overtures of getting-to-know-you, etc. Partly cluelessness, partly shyness. You know?

I am not in the least concerned about academics. I am absolutely confident that he can learn most of what he needs to know in life at home rather than at school, just like I did (I was not at all homeschooled, though I think it would have been far far better, but I loathed school for all sorts of reasons and pretty much ignored most of the academics except those few bits that happened to interest me. But I learned what I needed to learn, here and there, and obviously it did not turn out *too* badly because I have a PhD and am a former college professor )

My main concern is just that he get mileage with learning to meet and get along with and work with a variety of people, you know? Not that school is by any means the only place that can happen but you're basically locked in a room with 20-30 other kids for most of the day so it greatly accelerates the opportunities. Although, thinking about some of the reasons I loathed school myself, being locked in a room with 20-30 kids all day does not *necessarily* make you learn how to get along happily with them

My chief reason for wanting to homeschool is that a) while I think the public school system is a terrific safety net for those who are not learning stuff at home, I think it pretty severely sucks at producing citizens who are generally into learning as a lifelong pursuit; and b) looking at what passes for popular culture among kids these days, I think it is really scary to see 'kids raising kids' in such a consumerist, cliquish, irresponsible mindset and I am not sure that marinating a kid in that kind of situation is the best choice if there is an alternative available.

So I still don't know what's best to do. (Except I know I am totally comfortable with not putting him in Jr K' this fall). But I really appreciate your comments and suggestions, y'all, and will continue to read this thread with great interest

Pat

 

[heatherv]

I can only speak for my situation, and of a few good friends who homeschool their children. Sorry, this will be lengthy I'm sure!

To answer Pat's questions.....

1. If I could start over, I absolutely 100% would start from kindergarten. The 3.5 yrs my 8yo spent in schools... he was neglected and emotionally abused by peers and teachers. The things my 6yo daughter picked up and went through in her 6 mos of school are awful. And she had a wonderful teacher, the best I've ever met. There were 18 kids in the class.. so a small class, yet it was SOOO chaotic in there. Not much of the day was actually spent learning. Most was just spent sitting and waiting for the teacher to be done correcting "little johnny" (or whomever) and redirecting the kids to try to get their attention. My daughter was sooo bored and sooo frustrated. She spent most of her time caring for classmate w/ downs syndrome. She felt helpful and useful doing that. She didn't understand why other kids avoided her friend. She was often sad at the comments they'd make to him, and how they'd treat him. The ONLY thing positive about her school experience was that relationship she had w/ the D/S boy. She has a beautiful gift with how she sees special people... and I would not want that ever swayed by some of the snotty mean little girls that were in her class. I know alot of people say "oh you can't over protect them" blah blah blah. Until her character is built and strong... I absolutely can! And will to the best of my ability. I would have a heart attack and die if my kids started behaving like some of their former classmates. I'd rather protect them and guide and shape them into stronger characters before unleashing them onto the harsh world. And I haven't even touched on the whole academic part of our decision!

2. Our 8yo does have a social deficit... He is socially and emotionally disabled. He has High Functioning Autism... he's very intelligent... but you woulnd't think so in a peer setting. In fact at the end of each year, w/ each teacher.. they'd say that he needed to be held back and repeat the grade. I'd insist NO.. they'd say he hadn't learn a thing all year... but then if you sit down and TALK with him, and question him.... he has a better recollection (detailed) of everything that was taught. He just couldn't get it all onto paper b/c they weren't teaching him the way he needed to be taught. They wouldn't let him type his assignments.... and writing for him is torture (the texture of the paper bothers him) also if a classmate was tapping his foot/pencil/etc... or a light in the room was buzzing... etc.etc.etc... these things would distract him that he couldn't do anything. Yet he could still recall everything that was taught.... I bet not many of the other kids could do that!

The best way that he can learn social skills is in small group settings and one on one. He is active in scouts... they have a small group.. only 4 boys.. so it's perfect for him. We go to the park often... and there he's very social (he feels confident in that particular environment b/c he can talk to kids about nature.. his special interest) he always meets friends at the park. We can guide him and teach him social skills easily in these settings. At school it was hell for him. He even went to a special social skills class (that the school counselor taught, who was not trained to teach anything.. he was just winging it) Social Skills is part of our curriculum.. and we teach/learn it on a regular basis.. it will be something that our son will always struggle with. We're giving him tools... .something the school could not provide him. They didn't have the money to send teachers to trainings... they didn't have the time to accept FREE training to come into the school (we had this arranged) We've gone the IEP route... over and over and over again. It's not all sweet 'n dandy in all school districts... I have 3 friends who are special ed. teachers.. all across the country (well one in a different country now) I also meet special ed. teachers at conferences all the time. Some are blown away at the things I tell them that we've gone through. Others say that their districts are the same as ours. You can't just get an aide b/c your child has a disability and needs one. There's just not the funding for it always. Even if it IS the law, and it's in an IEP. The same goes for services (speech, occupational therapy..etc) And if you fight and fight hard in these districts and are one of the few succesful ones... you may get a tenth of the time that the Dr. prescribed! (if you're lucky) We've had to advocate for other parents/students.... just to get an evaluation so they can be recognized as disabled. They try to use the excuse "we just don't have the time this year, you'll have to try again next year" and many other tactics. It's ugly!

I know I"ve rambled off the questions/answers.. sorry.. this is just a hot topic for me... really gets me goin'.

Pat, my 4yo sounds a bit like yours. Which is why he is going to preschool for 3 half days a week starting in the fall. It is at a school where we know how the teachers are.. we know the curriculum well.. and feel it's a positive thing for him. We tried a different one last year, and we pulled him out within a month... it was just a play date.. while the "teachers" sat around and gossiped and talked about inappropriate things in front of the kids. So we're confident and hopeful that this new one is a step in the right direction for him. If we were part of a church group right now (since we've moved out into the woods, we haven't found a church family suitable for us) then I think he'd get all he needs from that... so that's what we look fwd to in our future. He'll also be able to start scouts in another year. I don't believe he'll be attending public school for kindergarten. I plan on starting him w/ our new school year, January 09.

For anyone who's volunteered in a kindergarten class... and really take note.. there's not a whole lot of learning going on, for the amount of time that your child is there. My kids were picked up by the bus at 7:15... and they got back home around 4:30... that's a loooong day. And I think I've already said this.. but alot of that time is spent waiting in line (to go to recess, lunch, music, gym, art, library etc) and also waiting for the teacher to stop correcting "little johnny" and on and on and on. The estimated time of instruction for older grades is 15 minutes per hour. (that doesn't include bus, lunch, recess etc)

Let's talk about lunch! At our most recent school... the children had 15 minutes to their lunch time. Which if you were at the end of the line.... it lasted 10 minutes.. then you had 5 minutes to scarf down your food. If you spent time on "small talk" you didn't get to eat even half of your lunch. Finally after me rallying w/ other parents.. and 3 months of complaints.. they changed it to 20 minutes. (and my son got to go straight to the frnot of the line) but what about those parents who don't step up for their kids.. or don't even know what's going on?

Of the few friends I have who homeschool... their main reason was to individualize their child's education. They're either learning disabled... or gifted... and the public schools would not adapt to suit the child. (and one to protect her children from the children who's parents don't give a damn) Teachers are spread too thin as it is.. they can't have seperate curriculum and lessons for each and every child who learns in a different way. Even if you have an IEP that says they have to do that.. it's just not possible to expect all teachers to do that... though there are the exceptional gifted teachers who are dynamic and skilled at doing this. These are the ones who you know are teaching b/c it is there passion! I wish we could have these teachers for ALL grades!!!! But even so.. they're spread thin.. and there's just not enough time to fully accomadate all students to their maximum learning potential.

g'nite y'all! I know I could go on all night adding to this.. but I won't make you suffer!

 

[Okiemommy]

Those are some really good points Heather. So I guess the remaining question is: What does everyone do to make up for the social learning/interaction that needs to take place? Heather you mentioned a curriculum. How is this need met with other children, how often do they meet with other children? Once a week? Twice a week? etc Would anyone be willing to share their experience or provide insight as to how to grow a child who is a good social navigator? Let's get the stigma out of the way. The belief that many people have and a driving fear as to why many people don't homeschool, or are hesitant to homeschool, is social ineptitude. People are afraid that homeschooling produces socially awkward people, recluses, or elitist people. My husband is one of them. He is against homeschooling until I am able to make a case for why, my child who already has exhibited social inability, will become a socially abled adult.

What ways are there to compensate for the loss of social interaction when going from public/private school to homeschooling?

 

[patandchickens]

The belief that many people have and a driving fear as to why many people don't homeschool, or are hesitant to homeschool, is social ineptitude. People are afraid that homeschooling produces socially awkward people, recluses, or elitist people. My husband is one of them. He is against homeschooling until I am able to make a case for why, my child who already has exhibited social inability, will become a socially abled adult.

Actually, what studies have been done -- although one might wish for more better studies -- have shown that on average, homeschooled students seem to be MORE socially well-adjusted than their public schooled peers. That is not to say that some may not be kept unconstructively isolated, but, you know, on average. Probably someone else here can provide sources for this or I can try to figure out where I've seen it, for your husband's benefit.

Also, as a former college professor (why has this come up so many times in the past coupla days? ) I have to tell you that homeschooled students, assuming they have some sort of documentation of curricular adequacy e.g. standardized testing and/or college courses already under their belt, are generally considered a PRIME CATCH by colleges and universities to whom they apply. And not just for academic reasons per se, but because they tend to be much more mature, socially ept, and able to handle being in the 'grown up world' of college (rather than disappearing into a fraternity or a series of weekend drinking binges for the first several years of their college career )

Would anyone be willing to share the iir experience or provide insight as to how to grow a child who is a good social navigator?

Beyond 'get them involved in activities', I would LOVE to hear peoples' thoughts on this subjects and I think it is a most excellent and important question.


Pat

 

[the simple life]

I, as I said have considered homeschooling myself and think its a great concept or I wouldn't have considered it.
I think we all homeschool to a degree no matter what, since you usually make everything a learning experience when you have children. I know that we take alot of opportunities for hands on learning and plan special activities to do that.
Anyway, I wanted to clarify a point for other parents who may have a child with a disability and read some of these posts and be scared off of public special ed.They may have great resources where they live, even if some do not.If homeschooling is not an option for them they should know that they can go after services for their child.
I have alot of experience (unfortunately) with this subject and have been dealing in it for years.

Regarding the IEPs, if a child has one its the law that its enforced.This is something I am very familiar with and I just want to clarify a few things for anyone who may in the future have to deal with this and will read the previous posts and think theyhave no rights. The school has no rights when it comes to an IEP that they drew up, they either enforce it or they face the music. The Department of Education does not take it lightly and they are not on the school's side when it comes to this. If they design an IEP then they have put into a contract what this child needs, by their own admission.
Intelligence has nothing to do with anything either, if a child has an issue, they have an issue and the school by law has to accomodate this. Most children that are on IEPs are very intelligent, they usually have a social behavioral or speech/language issue.
The lack of funding or staff is not an excuse they can legally use, if they cannot give your child what the law states - a fair and appropriate education- in your own district then they must pay for a private school that can do this. This is the FAPE law and it is a civil right.
Most children that truly need an aide get one because they will face a lawsuit if anything happens to that child. Usually an aide is needed if the child tends to wander, has a physical disability, is in danger of hurting himself or others. Or if they truly can't function on their own.
Its not fun to have to advocate for your child when you feel they should just be given what they need but thats the way it is all over.
The fact is if they identify a child with a disabililty that impedes their learning at grade level, they must accomodate their needs.
You can, if you were so inclined even take them to court if you want. If you file a complaint with the Department of Education and then can't come to an agreement during mediation, your next step is to file a suit.
They rarely ever let it get that far.
Quite often around here you have to fight to get your child out of services. There have been many times here when a parent doesn't think a child needs special ed services anymore and the school feels they do and won't release them.Thats when alot of people here decide to homeschool their kids.
It doesn't just vary from state to state either, it can vary from one school district to another. There can be sevices offered in one school and then not offered a few blocks away. ALthough, thats usually when they just send the child to school out of district around here.
Anyway, as I said, homeschooling is great for some and have considered it myself. But I felt the need to clarify the issue surrounding the parents and students rights for others who may not be informed and need this information down the road.

 

[patandchickens]

The school has no rights when it comes to an IEP that they drew up, they either enforce it or they face the music. The Department of Education does not take it lightly and they are not on the school's side when it comes to this.

I think in this regard that it helps to live in Massachusetts or a similar state I know for a fact this is NOT the way it empirically works in many places -- it may be SUPPOSED to but you can't always get it to actually HAPPEN.

If you file a complaint with the Department of Education and then can't come to an agreement during mediation, your next step is to file a suit. They rarely ever let it get that far.

The difficulty is (in some places) that by the point anything gets DONE the kid may be nearing graduation age

I'm not against the public school system, I think it plays a valuable role in society, I'm just saying that people in different geographic areas may have very REAL roadblocks in getting certain services no matter how hard the tree is shaken.


Pat

 

[the simple life]

That is entirely possible, the point of my post though was to point out that for those who may be reading this thread and not yet have had to deal in this area but may in the future, that they do have legal rights.
I would not want to discourage someone from trying to obtain services for their child because they hear its next to impossible, even if that is the case is some instances.
As far as how long it takes, though it may take a while in some areas the law has specific guidelines for each step on how many days the school dept has to complete each process to avoid the situation where a child would be ready to graduate without recieving the appropriate services.
In my state you can get in home services for special needs if your child is not school aged yet or if you are homeschooling but the child requires services.
Again, not against homeschooling, not in love with the public school system, pointing out that because some areas may be sorely lacking in special ed services that is not the case all over, and this board has large demographic group.

 

[patandchickens]

As far as how long it takes, though it may take a while in some areas the law has specific guidelines for each step on how many days the school dept has to complete each process to avoid the situation where a child would be ready to graduate without recieving the appropriate services.

The thing is, it does not matter what the law says if it doesn't happen. I mean obviously you can sue the school district and so forth, and ultimately make it happen, but that can take a looooong time like many years.

pointing out that because some areas may be sorely lacking in special ed services that is not the case all over, and this board has large demographic group.

That is certainly a good point - I hope it is clear that I am not arguing with you, just trying to say that sometimes you can wrassle the district into supplying legally-mandated extra help OR sometimes you can't. So (as you say) it's worth finding out what sort of place one lives in, if problems arise.

Peace,

Pat