cap and trade!

[sylvie]

It hasn't passed the Senate. The Senate will create it's own bill which will be the version that will pass.

 

[Big Daddy]

It hasn't passed the Senate. The Senate will create it's own bill which will be the version that will pass.

I don't think it will make it through the Senate. It passed the House on a pretty narrow margin.

 

[me&thegals]

Another disclaimer--I haven't read the bill. But, from a purely practical standpoint, no party proposing a bill that ACTUALLY raised people's energy taxes $6400/year during a recession would EVER get reelected. Makes it hard for me to believe this is what they are actually proposing.

For the record, I live in a home heated exclusively by wood, own a 13-yo car that gets 40 mpg, line dry my clothing year round, use my AC about 4 days per year, bike anywhere less than 6 miles away, and in general use a very small amount of electricity and fuel. I don't think I would personally be affected much by increased taxes since I use so little to begin with. I also personally have no problem with my gas prices going up or electric costs. I am willing to pay double on both (please do NOT jump down my throat--I am speaking for myself here) if increased taxes help our country get WAY more reasonable on energy usage.

I happen to really love this chunk of earth I live on

 

[Big Daddy]

Another disclaimer--I haven't read the bill. But, from a purely practical standpoint, no party proposing a bill that ACTUALLY raised people's energy taxes $6400/year during a recession would EVER get reelected. Makes it hard for me to believe this is what they are actually proposing.

For the record, I live in a home heated exclusively by wood, own a 13-yo car that gets 40 mpg, line dry my clothing year round, use my AC about 4 days per year, bike anywhere less than 6 miles away, and in general use a very small amount of electricity and fuel. I don't think I would personally be affected much by increased taxes since I use so little to begin with. I also personally have no problem with my gas prices going up or electric costs. I am willing to pay double on both (please do NOT jump down my throat--I am speaking for myself here) if increased taxes help our country get WAY more reasonable on energy usage.

I happen to really love this chunk of earth I live on

I love people that are willing to put their money where there mouth is, as the saying goes. I'm expecting an increase if this bill goes through. Certainly not 6400. That's strictly fear mongering. I applaud the fact that you do so much to minimize your footprint and would be willing to pay more to make things better. Bravo.

 

[inchworm]

Oh, Puh-lease!!

This will go the way EVERYthing in DC goes. The House passes one bill. The Senate passes a different bill. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon and attaches their own million dollar pork project until everyone compromises on the real bill that finally gets passed. This final bill will fund special interest projects across the board that have nothing to do with the environment, there will be a massive increase in red tape and regulations which will put small businesses out of business and encourage larger businesses to look elsewhere, and there will be massive tax increases that will be most detrimental to people who live in rural areas and working class people. As people and businesses become more strapped for cash, they will look to the feds to give them "free" health care. And the amount of pollutants will actually increase because the bill didn't really do anything put pad the pockets of lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians. At this point, the politicians say what a success it was, because pollutants didn't go up as much as they would have if they hadn't passed the legislation. And the American people will once again vote for the same congress person that they have been for the past 30 years because they think the problem is everyone else's senator. And Big Daddy will say it was all the evil corporations' fault.

Now that I know how DC works, time for me to run for office so I can have an affair with my intern....

 

[Big Daddy]

Oh, Puh-lease!!

This will go the way EVERYthing in DC goes. The House passes one bill. The Senate passes a different bill. Everyone jumps on the bandwagon and attaches their own million dollar pork project until everyone compromises on the real bill that finally gets passed. This final bill will fund special interest projects across the board that have nothing to do with the environment, there will be a massive increase in red tape and regulations which will put small businesses out of business and encourage larger businesses to look elsewhere, and there will be massive tax increases that will be most detrimental to people who live in rural areas and working class people. As people and businesses become more strapped for cash, they will look to the feds to give them "free" health care. And the amount of pollutants will actually increase because the bill didn't really do anything put pad the pockets of lawyers, lobbyists, and politicians. At this point, the politicians say what a success it was, because pollutants didn't go up as much as they would have if they hadn't passed the legislation. And the American people will once again vote for the same congress person that they have been for the past 30 years because they think the problem is everyone else's senator. And Big Daddy will say it was all the evil corporations' fault.

Now that I know how DC works, time for me to run for office so I can have an affair with my intern....

You got it all figured out. Unfortunately you are probably right.Including the part about the big corporations who actually run the whole show. Until they reform campaign finances our system will always suck. Since none of the politicians want to lose all those campaign contributions they get from big oil, pharm and med nothing will ever change.

 

[k0xxx]

I love people that are willing to put their money where there mouth is, as the saying goes. I'm expecting an increase if this bill goes through. Certainly not 6400. That's strictly fear mongering. I applaud the fact that you do so much to minimize your footprint and would be willing to pay more to make things better. Bravo.

I don't believe that the 6400 dollar amount represents the amount a families home energy bill would increase. I believe that the home energy is included, but that it is also takes in the increased cost of everything purchased. Every producer of raw materials, manufacturer, wholesaler, transporter, retailer, etc., will have their costs go up. Each business that touches any goods, before you purchase them, will have to pass on the increased costs. 6400 dollars is the total of the added costs over the year, and from what I have read, it may be conservative.

Taking into consideration the fact that the value of a dollar is still sliding downward, and it only figures that it will take even more of those dollars to purchase energy.

In the long term, this might be a good way to force families (via hardship) to reduce their energy usage, but in the current state of the economy it certainly seems like a bad idea. The fact remains though, whenever you increase the cost of energy, the people that get hurt the most, are the ones that can afford it the least. You can bet that fat cat politicians will hardly notice it, if at all.

 

[Big Daddy]

We have a family unit of 8 right now that we have to support. Mortgage and credit card payments are a fixed amount and will not change with fuel. That leaves groceries, horse food, electricity, propane and gas. Right now we spend 1100 on food, 240 on horse food, avg 220 electricity, avg 150 propane, avg 75 for car gas. That totals 1685 per month. So 6400 a year would be an extra 540 roughly. That's a 30% increase. I would venture to say that with the exception of propane that most families don't spend as much as us by virtue of the fact that they don't have as many family members. So that would mean as much as a 50% increase for smaller families.

Sorry I don't buy it. I'm sure cost will indeed go up. Gas is on the rise now. Heating fuel always goes up by 15 to 30% depending on the part of the country, Groceries are already going up. Our hay still has a fuel surcharge from last years 4.00 gas. Gas is down to 2.50 and has been much lower. So why is the fuel surcharge still there? People will use this cap and trade to raise prices weather they are paying more or not. Rule of thumb in capitalism is to always charge as much as you can get away with. They will never be able to tell how much cap and trade is actually costing. The right will say each family is paying 10,000 a year more. The left will say it's costing 200 more. Stats and figures can be made to say whatever you want. So it's all just speculation anyway.

 

[VT-Chicklit]

k0xxx said: I don't believe that the 6400 dollar amount represents the amount a families home energy bill would increase. I believe that the home energy is included, but that it is also takes in the increased cost of everything purchased. Every producer of raw materials, manufacturer, wholesaler, transporter, retailer, etc., will have their costs go up. Each business that touches any goods, before you purchase them, will have to pass on the increased costs. 6400 dollars is the total of the added costs over the year, and from what I have read, it may be conservative.

k0xxx, I believe you are correct, or at least that is how I understood the 6400 figure was derived. I don't think most people think about how many hands each item we buy goes through. There are very few things that are not made up of subparts from all over the globe. Even food, with the exception of "locally grown items" goes through many hands before we get it home. Each company that handles all or any part of an item will pass on a little bit more cost to cover their increased cost due to cap and trade. It all adds up. I believe the $6400 was for a family of 4. If you stop to think of how a company detirmines the cost of an item, which is usually the cost to manufacture/sell (including all over head) plus a profit that is based on a percentage of the total cost per item. The increase will not be just the cost of the cap and trade tax but he cost of the tax plus the percent profit on that added cost as well. I hope this makes sense.

My state just increased the tax that they charge for each gallon of gas they sell. Previously the tax was a flat amount per gallon, now the increase is based on a percentage. I guess they realised that they would get more tax money if the cost of gas goes up when the tax is percentage based. They must have felt cheated when it was $4+ a gallon last year, yet their tax money was the same as when it was $2.50 a gallon. Oh, by the way, the reason for the tax increase was because the gas tax revinues were down and they complained that they didnt have enough for road repair. We were driving less at that high cost and getting more efficient vehicles. That is all part of why these *#@%+# claim to want cap and trade, so that we will use less fossile fuels and "pollute less". How are they going to pay for all the things they are going to waste the cap and trade (tax) monies on once we are all Green and driving ugly electric cars powered by wind? It is just a money grab. Just like the tax on cigarettes (I do not smoke) which they spend on things like SCHIP. If that tax did what the claim they want it to do, deter smoking, who would pay for SCHIP when all the smokers stopped? Taxes to change behaviors don't work well, if they did there would be no smokers or drinkers, and the programs that these vices pay for would be looking for some where else to get their money. Like I said, it is all a money grab.

 

[k0xxx]

Big Daddy, I hope that your are correct. However, even Obama says, with the "Cap and Trade" plan, that cost for electricity will "skyrocket". When all of the producers down the line all have their energy costs skyrocket, it adds up each time an item exchanges hands. A stealth Value Added tax.

If he is telling us the truth (and I have no reason to doubt him), my wife and I will probably be boarding up our home, and moving into our 288 sq. ft. cabin, just to save on the fuel bill. My fixed income budget is near the breaking point already and now congress is discussing the possibility of a tax on my retirement medical insurance too. Great.

Obama on Cap and Trade