Cover crops and permanent rows~anyone doing them?
- Thread starter Beekissed
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- #22
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
No...not been gardening only for 5 years. 
Five years at that locale...five years of actually trying something new and different than the methods on which I was raised . No need to get defensive, just explaining the rationale behind why I used this type of cover crop and semi-permanent rows.
As un-fond as I am of Joel Salatin, he is world renown for his pasture management....if he says grazing or cutting back the grass tops to 2 in. in length causes the root mass to die off to the relative size of the grass crown, I pretty much believe him. He and many other pasture/grass experts also believe fully in the nitrogen fixing abilities of clover crops, so I bow to their years of experience in the matter and opt to believe someone who grows these grasses and develops them for a living instead of master gardeners who try to eliminate these from their lawns and gardens. One sees them as deliverance, one sees them as the enemy....I choose the fellows who actively grow them. If I want to learn about tomatoes, I'll consult a master gardener.
Yes the clover also uses nitrogen but has the ability to pull it from the air and actually uses less from the soil than the heavy nitrogen feeding plants growing nearby, such as corn.
Bees will naturally stay or go where the food is most abundant...if that abundance is within 20 yards of their hive, they will not expend energy going elsewhere that could be used in honey production. The more food abundance in one place, the more pollinator activity grows...this keeps my bees and area pollinators in my yard and garden instead of flying over the mountain to the next garden.
In YOUR area pine mulch may be in abundance...hence my YMMV statement. If it's cheaper for you to use pine bedding, by all means use it. But don't knock clover until you've tried it and found it wanting. Clover comes back on its own, thicker and greener, without repeat applications or labor. We all use what is cheapest and less labor intensive in our areas, I'm sure. Pine bedding also creates an acid soil and some garden plants do not thrive well in that acid...if weeds won't grow there, it may be that garden plants won't grow with pine mulch either. I'm not sure...never had pine needle mulch available in this area as we have primarily hard wood forests.
If you care to view the info under the avatars here, you can see the area in which we live...mine clearly states WV, mountainous region.
It might behoove you to include just such information on your profile, so that others who live near you can benefit from your wisdom on gardening should you care to offer it.
You have every right to be skeptical of any and all methods, as I have the right to explain why I refuse to be so skeptical until I actually try it in my area, on my soils, in my life routines so that I can then be skeptical for a good reason~that it just doesn't work for me.
The skeptic does not mean him who doubts, but him who investigates or researches, as opposed to him who asserts and thinks that he has found
Miguel de Unamuno quotes (Spanish Author and Philosopher, 1864-1936)
Five years at that locale...five years of actually trying something new and different than the methods on which I was raised . No need to get defensive, just explaining the rationale behind why I used this type of cover crop and semi-permanent rows. As un-fond as I am of Joel Salatin, he is world renown for his pasture management....if he says grazing or cutting back the grass tops to 2 in. in length causes the root mass to die off to the relative size of the grass crown, I pretty much believe him. He and many other pasture/grass experts also believe fully in the nitrogen fixing abilities of clover crops, so I bow to their years of experience in the matter and opt to believe someone who grows these grasses and develops them for a living instead of master gardeners who try to eliminate these from their lawns and gardens. One sees them as deliverance, one sees them as the enemy....I choose the fellows who actively grow them. If I want to learn about tomatoes, I'll consult a master gardener.
Yes the clover also uses nitrogen but has the ability to pull it from the air and actually uses less from the soil than the heavy nitrogen feeding plants growing nearby, such as corn.
Bees will naturally stay or go where the food is most abundant...if that abundance is within 20 yards of their hive, they will not expend energy going elsewhere that could be used in honey production. The more food abundance in one place, the more pollinator activity grows...this keeps my bees and area pollinators in my yard and garden instead of flying over the mountain to the next garden.
In YOUR area pine mulch may be in abundance...hence my YMMV statement. If it's cheaper for you to use pine bedding, by all means use it. But don't knock clover until you've tried it and found it wanting. Clover comes back on its own, thicker and greener, without repeat applications or labor. We all use what is cheapest and less labor intensive in our areas, I'm sure. Pine bedding also creates an acid soil and some garden plants do not thrive well in that acid...if weeds won't grow there, it may be that garden plants won't grow with pine mulch either. I'm not sure...never had pine needle mulch available in this area as we have primarily hard wood forests.
If you care to view the info under the avatars here, you can see the area in which we live...mine clearly states WV, mountainous region.
It might behoove you to include just such information on your profile, so that others who live near you can benefit from your wisdom on gardening should you care to offer it.
You have every right to be skeptical of any and all methods, as I have the right to explain why I refuse to be so skeptical until I actually try it in my area, on my soils, in my life routines so that I can then be skeptical for a good reason~that it just doesn't work for me.
The skeptic does not mean him who doubts, but him who investigates or researches, as opposed to him who asserts and thinks that he has found
Miguel de Unamuno quotes (Spanish Author and Philosopher, 1864-1936)
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- #24
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
Okay...you win! You simply do NOT have to try clover in your pathways simply because I found it a great thing.....
You simply do NOT have to try clover in your pathways simply because I found it a great thing..... 
FarmerJamie
Mr. Sensitive
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- #26
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
Now...I might have missed something in my own posting. Could you please point out the part where I stated "you should do it this way". Actually, if you can point out ANY posting of mine where I've stated or implied that anyone SHOULD do anything THIS way, I'd be pleased to not only view it and review it, but I'll go back and change it. The thread was started to show a gardening method that I've tried and liked...and wondered if anyone else was trying and what they thought of it. Thus the title with the question.FarmerJamie said:You may have found a great thing for you, wonderful for you!I mean that in all seriousness.
Several of us that browse this forum are professional technical people by trade/careers and are perhaps a little wary of the "you should do it this way" advice that doesn't involve a little robust discussion of "why". Just because we question the underlying cause of why something is perceived to work or to be a better way, we shouldn't be made to feel like we are "looking for argument", we are looking to understand how to adapt things to our personal world.
None of us are omnipotent or all knowing simply because of our personal experiences, we all have something to learn (and something to contribute).
There was an ad on the local radio station not to long ago for a business consulting company in the area. They told a story about a company handing trimming the side of letters off before they mailed them out. Looking into it, they were doing it because years ago the owner got a deal on a boatload of non-standard envelopes. Those envelopes were long used up. If no one asks questions, we can't focus on what really works.
This is a wide and varied country, with many different environments in which we live. I know there are people here who choose not to post because they are afraid of the "you should do it my way" responses, regardless of whether or not the response is meant to be helpful. If people aren't encouraged to ask clarifying questions, then this isn't much of a discussion forum in which to learn new things.
Please feel free to take a moment to show me my error in judgement where I told anyone they should do anything just as I have. Merely stating how much I liked it and what it did with my garden isn't in anyway implying that anyone SHOULD do it also...it just shows that I did it and liked it and wondered if anyone else tried it too.
Clarifying questions aren't usually verbalized in such aggressive tones and I didn't see anything with a question mark that denoted the poster was wanting anything resembling clarification....just statements about how skeptical they are of the efficacy of the method. Normally, adults can determine that if something works for someone in another region that it may not work for them in theirs. If that seems to be the communication breakdown, maybe I should clarify what YMMV means. Your Mileage May Vary...I believe I DID post that in one of my responses.
I'll be awaiting your response on where I stated you should do this....I'll gladly change that statement if it can be found, Farmer Jamie.
Denim Deb
More Precious than Rubies
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I tried clover years ago and couldn't WAIT to get rid of it.
It didn't stay where I wanted it to, but spread which meant I was constantly pulling it out.
It attracted bees. Good for attracting bees and for honey production, but I don't own bees and am in actual fact allergic to them. So, for me, it wasn't worth it.
I have over 100 trees in my yard, pine, various oaks, hickory, sassafras, ash, dogwood, etc so I use the leaves from that in my garden as well as anything I can rake up, old hay, straw, etc. Plus this year, I'm going to try and put cardboard down between the rows, and leave the rest for around the plants. I think it will make my job easier.
It didn't stay where I wanted it to, but spread which meant I was constantly pulling it out.
It attracted bees. Good for attracting bees and for honey production, but I don't own bees and am in actual fact allergic to them. So, for me, it wasn't worth it.
I have over 100 trees in my yard, pine, various oaks, hickory, sassafras, ash, dogwood, etc so I use the leaves from that in my garden as well as anything I can rake up, old hay, straw, etc. Plus this year, I'm going to try and put cardboard down between the rows, and leave the rest for around the plants. I think it will make my job easier.
reinbeau
Moderator Extraordinaire
I love white clover, and encourage it in my yard - it's great bee food! Yes, it spreads, but I weed - therefore I win
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Beekissed
Mountain Sage
ANN!!!! Where have you been????? We missed you!!!!!! 
