DEBT FREEDOM...how many see it as the first step to SS?

[FarmerChick]

back then it was common everyday life.
now, it has to be an option to take a life without the grid. a life without tv, computers, the bread machine, the mircowave, etc.

Solar and all that stuff costs money. A good bit of money.

Again, you have to want this to do it. You have to be financially set to sell a home without a loss, build a home with your own hands and know what you are doing etc. etc.

Most of all, you have to be a person that can downgrade and leave all this "stuff and convenience" behind. That is hard for alot of people to do. Romantic life, sure it sounds wonderful....but I could not do it. I could not build a home by my own hands, I dont' want too...LOL.-----so again, you have to be that person. Many of us are not.

I don't think alot of people can do it. You have to BE THAT person....and for alot of us, BOTH in the marriage has to want it to that level.


BUT one thing, for anyone wanting it and can obtain it, more power to them! It just means they found their dream. AND alot of us can never say that!

 

[Beekissed]

I wonder how many out there are actually doing it. We probably wouldn't hear from them about it, that's for sure! They probably won't be on a computer based forum on a regular basis.

I've seen two extremes of off-grid living...the kind that takes a whole bunch of money...lots and lots...and you wonder why they are doing it if it costs so very much. I mean, yeah its the ultimate in no-strings living, but if you have to spend a million to get there, it kind of defeats the purpose of living close to the land. Unless one just wants to get lost...off the grid...can't be found (I would be tempted if I were rich! ) I read about one couple who bought a piece of property in Nova Scotia that is only accessible by plane and is going to have to charter a plane each time they need building materials...but plan to build a two-story home with all the trimmins' and fixins' and live like they did back in the suburbs but now they can have a garden...oh, and they will run generators for electricity. Heck, if ya got that much money you could buy a little island in the tropics and live off the fruit plantation while you sit in your hammock, paying low cost labor to work it for you!

Then, there is the kind where the people are going back to the land so they won't have to be dependent on a system that requires ever more working for the money to just live long enough to work for more money to live another day to go back to work, infinity. These are the people who will build a solar unit from $500 of recycled material and use a ram pump to get their water into the house. Who will find a DIY plan for a windmill and have a building full of discounted yacht batteries for power storage. Who will buy a book on how to build a cob home.....and attempt it! These are the intrepid people who will risk making a mistake to see if it isn't really a mistake. Gotta' admire them, they have a dream and the guts to see it through.

Then there are the folks who sort of slide into the off-grid, through circumstances or design, and find it comes easier and easier the deeper they get into it. Letting go of each little tie to the world, one at a time. These aren't extremists...they just are tired of not being able to keep the money they work so hard for. They want something to show for it, other than more debt. They actually would like to save money and start by living more and more SS.

I think this is the part where we come in....leaning more and more to SS, frugal living, exploring new and old ways of getting to actually keep the money that comes in the front door. Maybe one day we might experiment with some off-grid living, maybe not, but the possibility becomes more feasible each time we do without something we never thought we could do without. Then another. Pretty soon we might realize that what we are trying so hard to keep isn't so hard to give up if we really, really HAD to. Why else the speculation on emergency preparedness and what would we give up posts? We have thought about it, haven't we? Like the Amish...so serene and separate from the concerns of the world...working with our hands to provide a basic need. I know I can see it in my dreams....man, if yer gonna dream, dream big!!!

 

[Dace]

Bee I love your thought provoking posts and information What is the book you mentioned, it is an old book or a recent publication about older times?

Another point to consider is if you do slide off the grid and really go back to the days of old...what happens when you get too old/ill to care for your property, animals, haul wood & water etc. ? I often wonder if my dream of moving out to the country will ever happen...if I do get the chance how long could I physically maintain that lifestyle? I suspect that lifestyle would be dependent upon children living at home as well.

Just sharing something that floats around in my mind.

 

[inchworm]

I have long believed that TV has been the biggest factor of change in the past century. Aside from the advertising, the programs on TV have presented "normal American life" that is beyond the means of many. When all the TV families have granite counter tops, whirlpool tubs, and stone patios, people become convinced that it is "normal" and they should have it, too. we would all be more content and happier if we turned the tube off - or at least watched it with a more critical eye.

 

[Beekissed]

Bee I love your thought provoking posts and information What is the book you mentioned, it is an old book or a recent publication about older times?

Another point to consider is if you do slide off the grid and really go back to the days of old...what happens when you get too old/ill to care for your property, animals, haul wood & water etc. ? I often wonder if my dream of moving out to the country will ever happen...if I do get the chance how long could I physically maintain that lifestyle? I suspect that lifestyle would be dependent upon children living at home as well.

Just sharing something that floats around in my mind.

I agree with that, Dace! That's probably one of the reasons why my folks had to move off their homestead....my dad expected the boys to move on the land and build homes~it didn't matter if they wanted to have grid based or not~but my dad is such a control freak that noone wanted to oblige. He didn't ask the girls, BTW(said that they could divorce and the husbands would be living on the land~we tried to explain about alternative deeds but he wouldn't listen)! I would have done it in a heartbeat!

They could have maintained the lifestyle for many more years but Dad got mad because the boys wouldn't move there, so he sold out, out of sheer petulence!

He was only 60 when he sold the homestead and still quite vigorous...can work, exercise and dance us all into the ground. At 76, he can still beat all his grandson's in a footrace~and he runs barefooted!

When it comes down to it, this is where most folks who have farms or land when they age~if they don't have children, there comes a time when they have to make the decision to move. Of course, after a life of working outside and eating right, that moment comes much later than folks who didn't...but it still comes.

My dad now has Alzheimer's. He and mom are still amazingly physically fit and still live back in the woods in a trailer~with a big log cabin addition added on! They retained some of their original acreage when they sold the homestead.

My mom maintains the home and does all the outside and inside work and takes care of dad. They go line dancing 4 times a week, shag dancing on the weekends and roller skating on the weekends as well. They still heat with wood, she cans around 100-150 qts. of tomatoes a year(they are vegans), from her huge garden. She just got her driver's license last month...at the age of 74.

 

[FarmerChick]

not many go back to true self sufficiency unless they are the true type of person that wants to live super simple...without convenience and without conventional jobs and take the risk.

yes, risk.
property taxes. you can't live on that land unless you pay for it year after year.

if you do not work outside the home and have medical insurance, very quickly you can lose it all.

I think most SS type people are heading back to one income...DH works and the woman stays home and works the land and family. That is my situation.

You are so right. There are so many levels but I doubt many will head back to a true homestead. Like you said, it takes an entire family to work a homestead truly....to still afford to live in this day and age. Kids are spread out in different states and have different lives. Families used to stay together kinda, they don't now.

My Grandpa lost 99 acres during the depression in Bloomfield County New Jersey cause he could not pay $33 property taxes on that land. Yup, it is surely worth over 300 million or more now I am sure....gone-zo!

Of course that is the depression time, but now if you have a sick kid and you have no insurance and something happens, you are racking up tons of bills in a heartbeat.......remember with living cheaply means there is not much income to also go to savings to have a buffer.

It is amazing how I realize that we must truly plan for "what if"----my grandpa and such could only plan so much.....there truly was no money for "what if" savings. I at least have that luxury....they sure didn't. They lived that unpredictable financial life every minute.

For me personally, I never had a dream to live off grid. I want to use less of that grid..LOL.....it is very feasible for someone to live true SS lifestyle being hooked to the grid in my mind....key being usage. Use less ya know. You are using electricity......just not opting for solar or wind or propane etc. All other sources have to be required from outside sources. True SS is having NO power to me......so if I can opt for solar or wind or whatever replacement, why not just use electricity but keep it to a minimum....like say I will only use $40 worth of power per month.......the savings is there, the less usage of power gives back to society, and you still have the power if ever needed to use.

SS to me is not working harder, or paying more money to do so, or anything like that.....it is learning to live with less for me. Like you said, I think alot of us are waking up to the "less is more" lifestyle. We all were on the upswing of technology, thinking we can have it all, well times showed us we can't have it all....not without alot of consessions in our life, so I think alot of us are thinking it is time to use less, live less complicated, buy less big ticket items, etc. etc.

There is a catch 22 to SS living for alot of people. Again, old age and medical problems are biggies. Yea at 20 I could do a log cabin and live without alot of convenience, at 50 heading into 60...hmm...I want to be able to have those things and live easier as I grow old.

I think we are super fortunate to have what is available out there in this world now. We just have to use it wisely!

just rambling folks...I enjoy chatting about this stuff!

 

[hoosier]

I am really enjoying reading everyone's posts here.

 

[DrakeMaiden]

Agreed about the property tax comment. That obligation probably won't ever go away and requires work outside the home. I think it is also proportionately worse as you age. Your ability to pay it decreases over time as the value of the obligation increases over time.

I agree with a lot of what you are saying, FarmerChick.

I think most of us will only manage degrees of self sufficiency in our lifetime. However, even if you can't take it to the extreme, I do believe there is high value in learning to do the best you can.

An example of this that was brought to my attention recently would be a person's rate of trash accumulation. My husband and I have gotten quite adept at generating very little trash. So much so that we realized when we moved last year that we did not require trash collection. We manage by taking our modest-sized trash can to the local disposal site about once a month. It only costs about $5. This is quite a savings for us.

The other benefits of this low degree of trash accumulation was best viewed during our recent high snowfall event. Our region rarely gets snow accumulation to any degree, so we lack adequate numbers of snowploughs, etc. In our recent storm we got over a foot of snow and since clearing took time and roads were unsafe, people were backed up with 1-2 weeks worth of trash. It was amazing to see the fascination with this topic on the local news channels. People were irrate about having to live with their own trash for over a week! It was kinda funny, but also kinda scary. We should all take a little more responsibility for the amount of stuff we throw away! Imagine what would happen if trash collection stopped altogether!!!! Admitedly, even I don't want to think about that one.

 

[Beekissed]

We generate very little trash here, as well. We seldom used canned goods from the store, usually tuna, but we rinse out the cans before disposing. We rinse out all containers before disposing. Whatever paper products we may have get used to start fires. So, we have very little trash and it doesn't have a smell. We keep it in the cellar until trash day.

I can't imagine, from what I see along the streets of our small town, the amount of trash buildup in 2 weeks!!!

I think this is one other good thing about SS living...the small amount of waste that results. My parents are vegans and they don't generate a small bag of trash in a couple of weeks...and that's only if Mom has been deep cleaning and eliminating things.

I think each and every little step like this....like only $5 a month for trash disposal....is a step towards debt freedom, if we don't generate more debt with the money saved!

We used to save our trash and take it once a month to the dump on the "free day". Then we realized that the dump was so far away, that we were using more gas to get there and back than it takes to pay the monthly trash bill! Live and learn, live and learn!

 

[FarmerChick]

Tony's grandparents never "took" trash anywhere. Many people never did. What they used was buried in a hole on the farm. Yup, the had a big pit in the branch area behind the hay field where the woods started. To this day there is everything in there from old timey bottles, to cans, to a washer I saw...LOL....yup, you kept your own trash.

Ralph bulldozed dirt over it now and it isn't being used. I figure most of it will be in that hole forever..LOL

Of course there was the burn pit also.



that is a great point about trash. NOW when I take a kids toy out of the plastic box, (that is if I can get in that plastic) it is tied up with 500 plastic twist ties and encased in extra cardboard strappings. I can not believe packaging nowadays. SO MUCH effort to strap in a Barbie doll in a box. incredible.