Dirty Words? GLOBAL OUTSOURCING - Also, is the world flat ?

[Nifty]

I'd love to see a friendly discussion on this topic. I just thought I'd rant on a few things rolling around in my head:

I recently read the book, "The World Is Flat " and I found it utterly fascinating!

From wikipedia:

"The title is a metaphor for viewing the world as flat or level in terms of commerce and competition, as in a level playing field or one where all competitors have an equal opportunity. As the first edition cover indicates, the title also alludes to the historic shifts in perception once people realized the world was not flat, but round and how a similar shift in perception albeit figurative is required if countries, companies and individuals want to remain competitive in a global market where historical, regional and geographical divisions are becoming increasingly irrelevant."

I'm personally a fan of outsourcing and a "flattening world" for a plethora of reasons. I believe that in the short term there may be some much hyped negative aspects associated with outsourcing, but that (like many things in the media) the positives are often left out or pushed to the side. Yes, many Americans have lost their jobs, but there are also millions of people that are being pulled from poverty as the world flattens and works together.

I worry that much of the US is becoming complacent and many people have a feeling of entitlement because the US has been such a powerhouse over the years. This coupled with people living beyond their means is setting many up for problems ahead.

So, what do you think about outsourcing and a "flattening world"?

 

[Beekissed]

I think to have everything "equals" would pull some nations out of poverty and pull ours back into it. I don't think anyone would like that, but then, I've lived there all my life, so it wouldn't change many things for me!

I do agree that most of America lives beyond their means, but I don't think they will learn to adapt, so much as just rely on more help from the federal government. The nations that are providing most of the outsourcing would do better to regulate their own governments and try to bring down the feudal systems that destroy their economy. Its not our responsibility to provide that "flattening" for them. America is powerful because of her democracy and it will become a defeated nation due to the same government, sadly enough. Before its all over there will be a general "flattening" all around, of this I am sure. Will I like it? Nope. But then, what goes up must come down. :/

 

[enjoy the ride]

Regional differences are smoothed over to some extent by technology and maybe it will become one happy, homogenized world but that would would be the first time that ever even started to happen..
History is how it is because humans are how they are. In a world of blue eyed, blond, 6 foot high, unisex people- the right handed will kill the left handed (or visa versa- I'm not bigoted.)
Humans must catagorize because we are biologically determined to do so- we make war at least half the time because we biologically need to do so. If we really loved peace and equality, we would already have it. If everyone really decided to share everything equally, more utopian societies would not fail so fast. All people would work equally- ha on that one- not in the genes.

Globalization is just another way to find someone else to take advantage of. If the US laws mandate a minimum wage, then greed will go when there isn't such a law. If the mandate is for clean air, go to a place where no one will protest.

For instance China and India can only succeed when they have us to buy their products- when we can't, who will they sell to? If they can't sell, where does the prosperity go?

I predict there is much more likely to be a world wide depression than a world wide success- but at least we stand a chance of being all equal in terms of poverty. No one will covet that.

Luckily I think also that Arab oil greed (or our greedy use ) will keep the worst from happening- too expensive to move product - only intellectual property can move cheaply.

About US obliviousness- well, if a person has never seen the rest of the world, can you blame them for assuming that what they have known it to be their natural right? If they are protected from the effects of lack of effort, why exert themselves? In our society, failure is never the person's fault- it's societies. I'm always argueing with people who refuse vaccinations for their children- but can you blame them? I have seen lepers and small pox- medical success has kept most of the recent generations blind. World wide success, if we ever even came close, will fail for that very reason- people who are ignorant of history are doomed to repeat it. Success bares the seeds of its own distruction.

Variety equates with survival- in a uniform society, all will sooner or later be eliminated when what ever is their weakness hits.

Globalization is a dirty word. And how can flattening stop at flat- the force causing this continues til it's a depression.

 

[me&thegals]

I, too, just finished that book and found myself completely changing paradigms! I never thought I would come to see some of the positives of globalization, but I did.

More than anything, it made me want to really encourage my kids to work harder, learn more. Our educational system is apallingly behind other less wealthy nations, our healthcare, too. Even though my kids have the advantage of not being glued to technology, they are still dependent on public education. I hope I can supplement that at home just in our daily living.

I think the most shocking thing about the book was the idea that we do not have this "right" to our jobs, our work. Technology allows many of our jobs to move abroad. Somebody in another part of the world could possibly do it for about 1/10th the pay and get wealthy by that part of the world's standards.

I think it is always difficult to go backwards, but I would like to think I would be willing to have less if it meant others coming out of poverty and having more. I'm not saying it would not be painful, but I do think Americans live in extreme extravagance, including many of those who are poor by our standards.

On the other hand, this book's premise is that although there would be growing pains, it could be positive all the way around. It would not need to be a "zero-sum" game.

 

[Nifty]

I knew I started a good topic!!!

Some very interesting and intelligent comments and a very civil discussion... cheers.

One point I don't share is the following:

Globalization is just another way to find someone else to take advantage of.

"Taking advantage" can be used in a positive or negative context. If I discover gold under my house I can "take advantage" of it. If I see $10 dangling out of the pocket of a kid in front of me at McDonalds I can "take advantage" of that too. One is good, the other... not so much. I'll assume the context of the statement above was leaning more towards the later than the former. If I am mistaken, I apologize and stop reading.

In my day job I work with a few companies in China and India where we outsource some of our tasks. The wages are fractions of what we pay here (SF Bay Area) especially when you add on benefits like health care, retirement plans, etc. I work closely with many of these people and know some personally. Just last night I was up until about 1:00 am talking with some friends in India on Skype. I can say this, they do not feel they are being taken advantage of and are very welcoming of the opportunity to provide better for their families.

 

[enjoy the ride]

No, Nifty, you are right- I would not feel taken advantage of either in that situation.
I would feel that I was taking advantage of someone else if I took pay away from someone living here who pays taxes to support less productive people, whose housing costs more as construction workers earn a living wage, and generally keeps a lot of other people out of dire straits with Social Security, food stamps etc, to pay the money to someone outside the country who does not have those burdens and so can feel rich receiving less.

This is not a criticism of those receiving but those paying.

I have a friend who is very wealthy- to avoid paying taxes in California, she has a residence in Nevada but only visit there. She is avoiding paying taxes for what she uses here.

Not that I don't think she hasn't good cause for being irritated ( a lot of waste) but it is not right to be the one who keeps more for themselves by making others bare more of a burden especially since the people who create the wealth are the ones being deprived..

 

[Beekissed]

One facet of this type of outsourcing that I DO NOT enjoy is the language barrier. If they are going to service an English speaking nation, it is generally best if they can speak and understand the language. Nothing so frustrating as a tech support call that is never resolved because they can't understand what you are saying. I have AOL. Not fun at all.

I don't think most business owners using outsourcing to other countries are doing it for any altruistic reasons, though. Bottom line, they make more money using cheap labor. So, they get richer, the average American suffers from the loss of jobs, and the other nation benefits from that loss. The only flattening I see here is in the middle...actually more like a dip, or depression, in the middle.

I think I've heard of an idea similar to that somewhere....can't think of where...you know, where there are eventually no rich or no poor, just everyone on the same level, no classes....yeah, I think it was called communism! Or was it socialism? I always get those two confused....

 

[me&thegals]

The book makes the point that America can continue to be the leader--the one with the hot new ideas, the ideas that make big bucks. Other developing countries can profit secondarily from these ideas and help build their own wealth.

If it makes a person nervous, I get comfort from thinking up jobs that nobody can take away. For example, I do CSA farming on the side. While my medical transcription day job could be outsourced, the very nature of local farming for local customers can never be taken from me

I also think Americans have had so much of the pie (money, natural resources, etc.) that it's uncomfortable to think about other nations edging in and sticking their fingers in it. Maybe I'm being too simplistic, but I sincerely believe a lot of the lessons taught in kindergarten apply to world relationships. Share, don't hog everything, help your fellow humans...

 

[Nifty]

One of my favorite quotes in that book:

When he was younger he heard one thing from his parents:

Tom, eat your lunch. Children in China and India are starving.

Today to his daughters:

I tell my Girls Do your homework, students in China and India are starving for your job.

Competition can be an amazing thing... it brings out the best in people (check out the Olympics). Part of the book's point is that it you don't want to be the one that is complacent on the couch while everyone else around you is doing push-ups and sit-ups.

Sometimes I wonder if I should be outsourcing my work to other countries vs. hiring in the US. At the end of the day I need to take advantage of the resources available because I'm guaranteed at the end of the day my competition will be.

There may be a few companies that can survive by saying, "We only support US workers, products, supplies, etc." There are some people that will support these companies and pay more to use their services and buy their goods on this premise. Unfortunately the other 95% of the US is shopping for the best service / product at the best price independent of where it is made... and I believe that will continue to encourage outsourcing and world flattening.

 

[Beekissed]

For example, I do CSA farming on the side. While my medical transcription day job could be outsourced, the very nature of local farming for local customers can never be taken from me

Until everyone's day jobs have been outsourced. Then they start doing a CSA and undercut you by growing more and using the local, cheap Mexican labor. Then, you, too, are out of an income source. It all trickles down, eventually, to the little guy. The rich corporations aren't taking a hit...they are actually making out like bandits. The poor underdeveloped nations are benefiting, when their own countries have the same natural resources as does ours, so why not utilize their own, build their own economy, take a leaf out of America's book and form a good government to bring all this to pass? Religious and cultural differences leave them divided in their country's growth.

I don't begrudge a poor family from making more money to feed their family. Some of the same countries that do most of the outsourcing, India for example, have more cows than humans. As the cow is sacred, they will not eat it. I don't call this true hunger. The problems in these countries are myriad and won't be solved by letting them have America's jobs. Its just not that simple.