Dirty Words? GLOBAL OUTSOURCING - Also, is the world flat ?

[me&thegals]

"The problems in these countries are myriad and won't be solved by letting them have America's jobs."

I respectfully somewhat disagree. First of all, the phrase "America's jobs" suggests that they belong to us (like, for good) just because we have them now. In a global economy (and like it or not, that's what we have), job are fluid and most can be moved anywhere. Like Nifty says, they will go to where they can be done the most cheaply, efficiently and best.

It's difficult to get in an extremely involved discussion on a forum, but regarding other country's problems, I would say that China's very act of becoming more of an globally involved economy has exposed some of its human rights issues to the world and actually given other countries a bargaining chip. "You shape up your policies or we won't trade with you," to REALLY oversimplify. Self-contained economies enable self-contained governments that can commit atrocities on their people. Do you think if we were doing some trade with Zimbabwe or Darfur things might look a little differently there?

 

[patandchickens]

Somebody in another part of the world could possibly do it for about 1/10th the pay and get wealthy by that part of the world's standards.

I think it is always difficult to go backwards, but I would like to think I would be willing to have less if it meant others coming out of poverty and having more. I'm not saying it would not be painful, but I do think Americans live in extreme extravagance, including many of those who are poor by our standards.

I haven't read (or even, til now, heard of) this book, so I can't comment on the book's argument.

However I have to wholeheartedly agree with what me&thegals writes above. For an awful lot of the things that go along with what we consider unacceptably 'poor' standard of living in the industrialized world, many many many people elsewhere can only DREAM of being so well off. I don't think that's fair. I think that not only is it ok for Americans, Canadians, etc to experience a drop in their average lifestyle, I think it would be much more fair and reasonable (b/c ain't no way the whole world is ever going to be able to live like middle-class Americans).

Unfortunately, the big problem with this is the cost, and I'm not thinking so much the cost to industrialized nations that see jobs and industries go overseas as I am the cost to the places they go TO. It so often (arguably, just about always) devastates the local environment, often in ways that will persist for probably centuries, and likewise so often devastates the local culture (language, customs, food, health, family structure, values, political stability, etc).

So on the whole, when you consider the second thing as well as the first, I dunno.

"Is that your final answer?" Yeah. "I dunno".

Not sure it's worth having too much of an opinion on anyhow, since IMO the horse is well out of the barn now and not goin' back in.

JMHO,


Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

I think that not only is it ok for Americans, Canadians, etc to experience a drop in their average lifestyle, I think it would be much more fair and reasonable (b/c ain't no way the whole world is ever going to be able to live like middle-class Americans).


*****Why? we all are never going to live alike? there is never going to be fair economy anywhere around this world at the same time. I sure don't want to experience a drop in my average lifestyle and will do all I can to never let that happen.

the world shouldn't live like middle class americans, just as I will never live like a middle class "anyone" else.


Anyway, the world is forever changing. We adapt. We always do and I mean everyone. Some have it worse, some better, some are middle. It will always be that way regardless of the changes that happen.

Oursourcing problem is you leave a country so vulnerable to being dependent on others. That is what scares me. But that is the way of the world now with massive import and export for a country to survive. Will it change, nope, like Pat said the horse is well out of the stable and it ain't coming back soon.....a long ride ahead.

 

[patandchickens]

I think that not only is it ok for Americans, Canadians, etc to experience a drop in their average lifestyle, I think it would be much more fair and reasonable (b/c ain't no way the whole world is ever going to be able to live like middle-class Americans).


*****Why? we all are never going to live alike? there is never going to be fair economy anywhere around this world at the same time. I sure don't want to experience a drop in my average lifestyle and will do all I can to never let that happen.

the world shouldn't live like middle class americans, just as I will never live like a middle class "anyone" else.

Well, everyone gets their own opinion, you know? We don't have to all agree about things

But I'm wondering how you'd feel about a kid of yours sitting around the table in kindergarten with some other kids, and a cookie jar is passed around, and your kid scoops out 3/4 of the cookies leaving very few for anyone else. All the kids sit there looking at their sad little single cookie and your kid's big pile of 'em.

I know that I, as a mom, would not be in the LEAST BIT happy about this behavior.

I would not be much happier about it if they were cookies that he brought himself and his classmates were hungry or had forgotten their snacks, either.

And yet, from your kid's perspective, he sure doesn't want to experience a drop in his cookie pile and will do all he can to never let that happen; the rest of the class doesn't need to live like he does, just as he will never live like any of the rest of them.

:/

If it isn't ok for other people to do in kindergarten, I am not sure it isn't just rationalization that makes us want to argue that it's ok for US to do, convenient tho it may be.

Just sayin'.

Pat

 

[me&thegals]

Thanks, Pat. Sometimes I feel like a weenie thinking that most of world politics and struggles could be solved by the lessons of kindergarten. We want to dress it up in grown-up language, but I think a lot of it is really basic.

To me, the "horse out of the barn" here is technology. The internet lets the entire world know what's out there, how we live, what they could have. This same technology allows many people in developing countries to work for those of us in developed countries. While I think WAY too many companies scalp employees to pad their CEOs (by outsourcing), I also know of companies who treat their employees well but simply cannot keep up with the exploding costs of healthcare and may eventually have to desperately search for other options to stay afloat. It takes hard work to go global (or at least I would assume) with time and language barriers to overcome (again, assuming). I would also assume most people would rather work with compatriots for many reasons but are simply forced to find other business models to stay alive.

I would be completely upset if I lost my job to another company in India, but I'm trying to maintain some perspective here and would hope I could adapt myself to a new job that would work well for me here.

 

[enjoy the ride]

Last night I was watching a PBS story about a Chinese "outsourced" ingredient ending up in cough syrups in Panama and killing over a hundred people before they figured out that the "ingredient" was not actually glycerine but polyglycol (the poison in anti-freeze that kills dogs.)

China did not arrest the owners of the company who did this- the company is still in business. And you know the reason that was given for the substitution of a cheaper poison for the correct ingrediant. "They (the people killed) are not Chinese so it didn't matter."

Anyone who expects that other countries or peoples are going to treat us the same way we would try to treat them has never lived anywhere for any length of time in a period of difficulty. I have lived through riots in Japan (yes, Japan) where I could have easily been killed if not rescued even though I was 5 years old, my sister was 6 and my Mom was alone in the house. The rioter's were held off by a German Shepard.

You can be friends with all sorts of people but when the squeeze comes, not many people in China or India or Europe or anywhere else are going to save you- your family first then your neighbors and fellow citizens are the ones who should share interest in your well being. And your lucky if there are enough of those people when you need them.

Just because you hear America press and social agencies carping of just how bad we are, doesn't mean it's true. Perfect no but as good as most and better than a quite few.
Most of the world is not philanthropic- and would not hesitate to take from you to help themselves.

If the US government were as racist as the Japanese, Chinese or others are, the screams would be non-stop. How can anyone then hold us to a higher standard while not expecting anything from others?

I want my neighbor to have the good job first- he is the one who will rally around me and mine. And if society did not raise him to be responsible and diligent, then too bad for society- they got what they earned.

I would want my children to share the cookies but would be angry as heck if the teacher decided to take the cookies I baked and sell them to some one else to "increase her profit."


PS Canadian people- congratulations on two really extraordinary gold medals- the open jumping was spectacular- I really like my neighbor to the north and wish you well.

 

[patandchickens]

Anyone who expects that other countries or peoples are going to treat us the same way we would try to treat them has never lived anywhere for any length of time in a period of difficulty.

Although, the same can often be said in reverse as well. You know? Like all the US companies that happily sell things abroad that are banned as toxic here in the US.

People are people <shrug>. They most often do NOT treat us the way we'd like to be treated. They not infrequently do not treat us the way we think we treat them, either

So what

When the so-called golden rule says "do unto others as you would have them do unto you" rather than "...as they do unto you", I don't personally think that's a misprint

PS Canadian people- congratulations on two really extraordinary gold medals- the open jumping was spectacular- I really like my neighbor to the north and wish you well.

Yeah, Eric Lamaze's horse was jumping SO spectacularly well, and he was riding so well, he really really really deserved it. No matter what country (I sure wish there was some way to do the Olympics with no country affiliations at all. There isn't, but I wish).

P.S. for whatever it's worth I am an American citizen and lived in the US for 37 years


Pat

 

[enjoy the ride]

"

I totally agree- which is why I do wish my fellow citizens to end up with most of the marble- not all but the most. They can hopefully spare some marbles for giving.

And, having lived in other places, and enjoyed the qualities of most, this is the place I love. Other countries point fingers at us (many deservedly,) but in truth, as a society, we do try to battle for the right more than any place I have ever been. Most other cultures think Americans are ridiculously naive- which to some extent we are. But they confuse a determination conduct ourself rightly (however many times we fail,) with ignorance.

I think our primary failure is to believe deep in our hearts that we have it right and if we just give others the opportunity to see this, they will become fellows.

There are plenty of othe places that deeply believe in their own superiority, having cultures entrenched for thousands of years. We don't and so are constantly adjusting ourselves. That is not bad at all- just hard.

 

[FarmerChick]

Well, everyone gets their own opinion, you know? We don't have to all agree about things

But I'm wondering how you'd feel about a kid of yours sitting around the table in kindergarten with some other kids, and a cookie jar is passed around, and your kid scoops out 3/4 of the cookies leaving very few for anyone else. All the kids sit there looking at their sad little single cookie and your kid's big pile of 'em.


*********I agree--this is just a chat definitely. I just don't understand why everyone in the world should drop their way of life to accomodate others. Makes no sense to me. Again, just my opinion..LOL

Any honestly to me the kindergarten analogy is not real....it doesn't apply to true world economics at all to me. Over simplying a problem doesn't fix it at all.

I am not going to sell my country to lose some of its wealth for her people, so another country can be equal in money terms. That doesn't make any sense to me at all. Other countries will develop, that is happening now. They can do it without taking from another country I believe. Being a global society and heading that way definitely, everyone will get their share, not today, but maybe tomorrow. Every countries economies will rise and fall. Heck we are falling right now but we will be fine. As will others.

Oh, and for all the poor in other countries, how about their govts. forking over some money to help its own people. While the fat cat feed off their oil wells, off their riches, their poor starve. It is not up to me to help every country. My country must come first. I am sure they worry about their country just like I worry about mine.

I care what happens out there....who doesn't.

But to assume an equal share for everyone in economics is not reasonable. Not everyone will ever have 1 cookie at the table, it will never happen. Some will have 6 cookies, some 3, some 1....and that will never change. Wishful fancy thinking can't make these changes either.

Cookies at a table are not real life economies in countries.

Again, this is not a debate or anything else, just chatting and rambling and throwing out my opinions..LOL...not to be taken in a negative manner at all...

 

[me&thegals]

Kindergarten analogies leave me vulnerable to seeming naive And, I probably am. But, why should the U.S. and other developed nations get all worried and restless when some jobs go overseas? We built our great nation on the backs of slaves after nearly eliminating the natives who first inhabited this land. We committed environmental and social atrocities, treated workers so badly that unions became a necessity, only abandoned slavery after a war forced the issue and only started cleaning up all sorts of environmental and other acts after we were wealthy enough to afford to do so.

Now we want everyone just entering the game to play by our rules, after we got rich flouting all of them?

It's easy to say other people's governments should care for them. Wouldn't that be wonderful? But, some don't. Or, maybe they are trying to by developing trade relations with us. Of course, that takes some of our jobs away when their government works to develop these trade agreements.

Back to the cookie analogy. Of course, that is over-simplified. Aren't all analogies? I don't think any of us is promoting communism in its purist form. But, why should millions upon millions of my fellow earth inhabitants starve to death every year when millions upon millions of us simply have too much? I am solidly lower-middle class. But, I can admit that I have WAY too much (again, not by U.S. standards but definitely by world standards).

So, maybe some countries don't have the bounty of natural resources that we in the U.S. had to get us started, maybe they don't have slave labor like we had, maybe they don't have a democracy that we have. But, maybe they have millions of intelligent, well-educated people who know how to make a living through nothing but their brains, computers and the incredible intercontinental lines that allow Internet connections everywhere. More power to them!