Dirty Words? GLOBAL OUTSOURCING - Also, is the world flat ?

[patandchickens]

one thing I was reflecting on this afternoon, on a monotonous drive home from the zoo splash park with two sleeping kids in the back seat, was how much of a REASON there is for the very stringent truth-in-labelling and consumer-and-food-safety laws in the US and other developed countries.

It isn't that way 'just in case'

You don't have to go back very far at all - fifty, a hundred years - to find all sorts of mindboggling things being merchanted with utter disregard for their effects on consumers. Poisons as medicines, toxic adulterants in foods, etcetera etcetera etcetera. I don't mean things that weren't known at the time to be harmful - I mean all the MANY MANY MANY times where the seller knew darn well what they were doing but it made extra profit and they weren't likely to get punished so why not.

If you think this impulse is extinct in modern America/Canada/etc, I would suggest you look at parts of the construction industry and related trades -- while there are very upright reputable hardworking honest construction firms, there are also an amazing number of fly-by-night rip-em-off-then-change-your-company's-name-and-do-it-again outfits knocking around out there.

The only difference I see between the US/Canada/etc versus "those other" countries that are being referred to as sources of harmful or contaminated products is, we've had longer to get our butts in action to draft laws against that sort of thing. Domestically anyhow. US/Canadian/etc companies can still sell all sorts of things overseas that are considered too harmful to sell domestically :/

One theory of the development of human society and civilization is that it is (in part) a general progress in which more and more people get included in your "us" category as opposed to your "them" category. I think there is some real truth in this. And I think it is much more useful to consider us ALL as us, rather than draw lines on a map to decide who's more important to ya.

JMO,

Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

Every country needs to develop on their own within their own culture and their beliefs and government framing. WE AS others in other countries can not "develop" them actually....we are arrogant in our thoughts that we can. We can't make them into something they don't want, people are not companies to be molded and produced as "we" see fit.

There are many organizations to help starving, disease, homeless, natural disaster relief, etc. etc. etc. ALOT of good is being done. We can not save all....it is not possible. At least there is super good out there and I am believing that true help must come from the parent country....from its own people...for their own benefit...from their own society and their own personal growth as a country.

again, just rambling and chatting....just something I think is a biggie, how we believe we "need" to fix everyone...sometimes we need to mind our own business. mankind is our business obviously, but at some point "all God's children" must be allowed to grow on their own.

I like this thread, fun reading how everyone views certain subjects and such.....

 

[FarmerChick]

me&thegals
all countries were built on the backs of others to some degree
Egyptians had slaves
Africans had slaves when other tribes were captured
vikings had slaves
england had "servants" which were no more than slaves
and so on and so on

there are countries with better resources than ours out there also.

All countries were built on blood and greed and more. We are not unique at all. "We" as a nation came from these other countries....Mankind is the same all over. We all have the same thoughts and emotions, just different wrappers on the outside.

again, just rambling and having fun with the topic.

 

[patandchickens]

There are many organizations to help starving, disease, homeless, natural disaster relief, etc. etc. etc. ALOT of good is being done. We can not save all....it is not possible.

I thought we were talking about globalization of industry, and overseas outsourcing, and such... not aid packages?

Pretty different thing, driven by completely different forces, seems to me.


Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

we are...but some of the posts mentioned there should be no starving people in this world.....so basically I said there are good things happening out there for prevention.

This world is not all negative at all to me. Change is hard on everyone. Change is going to happen and no one can stop it.

just chatting!

 

[Beekissed]

I am pretty proud to be an American and I don't think that we are the big, bad greedy country that we are being painted as being. Well, no more big, bad and greedy than any other nation, at least.

Its easy to formulate ideas and theories, as well as rosey little analogies of sharing when we are enjoying the very things that make us such a "greedy nation". You are even enjoying the freedom to express these thoughts! Bad or good, America has fought for these freedoms and the prosperity that comes with it. Some of us aren't enjoying the prosperity as much as others and self-sufficiency isn't just a hobby to see how much money we can save. Its a way of life due to the constant struggle to feed the kids or have a home. Some of us can't be so cavalier with our jobs and how much we can "share" them, as we don't have a second income real handy.

Do I feel for people in less fortunate countries? Yes, I do. That's part of being human. If you will notice, the more unfortunate countries are also the ones who on a daily basis display gross violation of human rights. The women and children are treated horribly in these countries and it has nothing to do with poverty. It has to do with their belief systems. The only reason that America has grown is because our country was based on and developed using Christian principles. Not as much any more, but it did develop, and our government was started, using God's word and Christianity. Do you think slavery would have been abolished if Christian people hadn't been against it? Do you think women would be treated as well as they are here if it weren't for Christian beliefs and principles? If you will notice, most of the countries who are largely of Christian faith, develop faster and do well. As we grow away from this faith, our country is starting to decline. I know some of you don't believe in Christianity but it does bear some thought.

As we cannot change these country's beliefs to the point that they do away with treating their women, their children and their poor the way that they do, with total disregard for health, happiness, etc. Then I can't see how increasing the income of the companies in these countries( who will allow their women to work for low wages but won't let them uncover their faces, and still mutilate their genitalia for religious reasons) will improve the country at all.

No, I'm not saying if they believe what I believe their countries will prosper. I'm saying there are very many reasons these countries do not and very few of them are because big, bad America won't share its prosperity. I don't pretend to know much about global economics but I do see the strife and war in these countries and it wasn't caused by America. We've had one major war within our country, they've had too many to count. We've had our struggles and they were all fought to overcome tyranny, injustice and for basic human rights. Theirs are fought and fought again, countless, numerous times, usually for religious differences, for land, for control of natural resources. We send aid, we send troops, we build hospitals and outsource to these countries. But they don't improve much, if any. We share a little more than we probably should to some of the countries that still mutilate their women, still work their children, that still don't take care of their poor.

Alot of American blood was spilled for these countries and BY these countries, so you won't find me criticizing my country's economic policies too much. No, I don't like outsourcing because it threatens the welfare of my fellow Americans. Not the one's who can afford two new cars, cell phones, satellite dish, a retirement fund, healthcare, a savings account, shopping at the mall, etc. The Americans I want to protect are the ones who still struggle to put food on the table, the ones who send their sons to the military to be able to afford college, the Americans who still think this country is a great place to live and appreciate her, despite her flaws. Slavery? I wasn't there, so I can't really feel ashamed over that. But promoting outsourcing as a way of "equalizing" the nations? I don't think I agree with that. Utopia would be a nice place to live, but we don't live there, we live in America.

For all the folks who want to share what they have as a "fat cat, greedy American"...I say put your money where your mouth is. Sell the cars, the nice house, cut off the cell service, the cable, sell all the convenient appliances...give the money to the poor of another country. Give up your job to them as well. Take your kids and move to Rowanda, after all, you wouldn't want your kids to have a cookie when theirs do not. When you have reduced yourself to the level of these unfortunate creatures, then you may criticize America all you want. As you sleep under the blanket of freedom, in your warm house, with your refrigerators full and good clothing on your backs, your kids tucked safely in the room next to you with no fear of being torn from their homes to work in some sweat shop or to be sold on the world market, I can't see how you can criticize America, as a whole, for not sharing enough. Oversimplifying? That road is a two way street.

 

[me&thegals]

Last night I was watching a PBS story about a Chinese "outsourced" ingredient ending up in cough syrups in Panama and killing over a hundred people before they figured out that the "ingredient" was not actually glycerine but polyglycol (the poison in anti-freeze that kills dogs.)

China did not arrest the owners of the company who did this- the company is still in business. And you know the reason that was given for the substitution of a cheaper poison for the correct ingrediant. "They (the people killed) are not Chinese so it didn't matter."

Anyone who expects that other countries or peoples are going to treat us the same way we would try to treat them has never lived anywhere for any length of time in a period of difficulty. I have lived through riots in Japan (yes, Japan) where I could have easily been killed if not rescued even though I was 5 years old, my sister was 6 and my Mom was alone in the house. The rioter's were held off by a German Shepard.

You can be friends with all sorts of people but when the squeeze comes, not many people in China or India or Europe or anywhere else are going to save you- your family first then your neighbors and fellow citizens are the ones who should share interest in your well being. And your lucky if there are enough of those people when you need them.

Just because you hear America press and social agencies carping of just how bad we are, doesn't mean it's true. Perfect no but as good as most and better than a quite few.
Most of the world is not philanthropic- and would not hesitate to take from you to help themselves.

If the US government were as racist as the Japanese, Chinese or others are, the screams would be non-stop. How can anyone then hold us to a higher standard while not expecting anything from others?

I want my neighbor to have the good job first- he is the one who will rally around me and mine. And if society did not raise him to be responsible and diligent, then too bad for society- they got what they earned.

I would want my children to share the cookies but would be angry as heck if the teacher decided to take the cookies I baked and sell them to some one else to "increase her profit."


PS Canadian people- congratulations on two really extraordinary gold medals- the open jumping was spectacular- I really like my neighbor to the north and wish you well.

Farmerchick--I was responding to the above when reminding folks that we have not always been pristine in our climb up the ladder (and still are not).

Beekissed--I have tremendous respect for your posts and always enjoy them. I think we will just disagree this time.

I love America. I love my life. I'm not working to be self sufficient because it's such a gas. My husband crop farms and is definitely affected by outsourcing, even crops. My job is not a huge payer, either. I work my butt of every single day from early morning until late night. Still, I don't live in a cardboard shack, I'm in no imminent danger of starving, my children are immunized. I thank my government for a lot of that. But, that doesn't mean that I think we got there fairly and honestly. We could argue about the original root causes of the Civil War and whether women fought for basic rights themselves or were granted them by Christian men. I think that may be beside the point and I only brought it up to point out that China is simply doing things we eventually regulated ourselves out of.

I guess I don't see how moving to a third-world country would be very helpful. I CAN see how hiring people from those countries to work for developed countries would help. And I NEVER understand how suggesting that America is less than perfect is seen as hating this nation. I love my husband like crazy, too, but perfect? Not! I don't despise myself, either, but I certainly have a lot to work on. I think truly loving my country makes me want her to do ever better. Again, though, I don't think this patriotism and nationalism applies to this debate at all.

I think the original question was if the world is becoming "flat" and if those are dirty words to us. Like I have said before, it would devastate me to lose my job and I can only imagine how I would struggle to continue to help support my family. On the other hand, we are not "giving" jobs to other nations out of charity. They are earning them because they are willing to work more cheaply, more diligently, or more efficiently. They EARN those jobs. Globalization is happening whether I like it or not. I just found it helpful to read the book and try to understand how and why it has happened, plus some possible positive outcomes.

Hope I have caused no offense. I love interesting conversations like these and hearing people's differing perspectives. The world is so complicated (to me), and so it helps me to try to see it from many different views.

 

[Beekissed]

We share a mutual admiration, Me&thegals! No offense meant or taken! Just enjoying the lively discussion of the topic and playing the devil's advocate(no pun intended ) is a roll I sometimes enjoy. Sort of like ol' Davaroo on BYC.

 

[Nifty]

China did not arrest the owners of the company who did this- the company is still in business. And you know the reason that was given for the substitution of a cheaper poison for the correct ingrediant. "They (the people killed) are not Chinese so it didn't matter."

Are you saying you would like to see a bit more harsh punishment for crimes in China regarding poorly constructed products? How's this;

"The former head of China's food and drug administration was sentenced to death Tuesday for taking bribes to approve substandard medicines including an antibiotic blamed for at least 10 deaths"
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/05/29/health/main2860989.shtml

 

[enjoy the ride]

Well- in one of the amazing coincidences that life provides, my best friend just told me she thinks that she will lose one of her jobs- it's being outsourced overseas. In our area, it is very hard to get a job and she worked remotely on her computer.
I have never know anyone to work as hard this woman does- as honestly and diligently. She works more than she is actually paid because she does not want to do a bad job. She paid off a tremendous debt due to medical bills by working two jobs month by month for years. Many times I could not persuade her to do something fun as she was too responsible to blow off her job.
How could a person like this be worth less than an unkown person in another country? Just another sad "adjustment" I suppose.
Out sourcing is not about unqualified people here- it is simply more money for a few at the expense of the very people who work hardest.