Food Shortage

[~gd]

I am a bit leery of that wikipedia reference to "denatured at 60C/145F". I would want to see the original paper cited (but can't since I don't have journal access) and see what EXACTLY they are describing. I am concerned that it may refer to rendering medical-purpose purified botulinum toxin insufficiently-active for medical use, rather than food safety precautions which may well not be the same.

The recommendation has always been (and if you look at extension services etc, still is) that you need a hard boil for 10-20 minutes to be reasonably sure of having gotten rid of the botulinum toxin -- and that's only for mildly-contaminated food, you would not want to count on it for something that C. botulinum has really 'gone to town' in. (Enough residual toxin could remain to still cause problems, as the denaturing is a percentage type issue)

So I would be real careful about anyone extrapolating too far from a secondhand comment in a wikipedia article to "oh, you don't even need to boil botulinum-contaminated food to make it safe to eat" :/

Just sayin',

Pat

I don't know what "just saying or just sayin' " is supposed to mean
but I am just saying to check your sources to see if they are talking about the toxin or the micro-organism that produce the toxin or the spores that grow the micro-organism that produce the toxin. I have checked three sites that mention foods that should NEVER be canned in a waterbath canner. Yes I know that they are propaply(sp)being on the safe side but I am just sayin'....

SKR8PN- Just saying I don't usually carry my hot water heater around LOLand the temp on mine is set for 120F not boiling or above. Just saying I hope you have a sense of humor...~gd

 

[SKR8PN]

SKR8PN- Just saying I don't usually carry my hot water heater around LOLand the temp on mine is set for 120F not boiling or above. Just saying I hope you have a sense of humor...~gd

I carry my sense of humor everywhere I go!

Just sayin'.

 

[Mackay]

Just saying that I think its nuts to not process canned food as recommended by home extension.

Just becasue someone ate a bunch of canned food that was not prepared properly and didn't get botulism means dink squat.

One error and your dead

just sayin...

 

[Mackay]

besides, I really really need to justify that $260 canner I bought

 

[DrakeMaiden]

I agree. I follow the current canning recommendations to the T . . . but . . . I have also read about old timers water bath canning meat, etc. and somehow they never got sick. Huh, I wonder why?

 

[Mackay]

They probably didn't get sick because no botulism spores were present in the first place...

but how to know? Thats why these safety rules were set up

 

[patandchickens]

I didn't say you shouldn't boil suspicious food.

I wasn't talking about that, DrakeMaiden -- I was talking about whoever it was that cited a Wikipedia article as the source for the information that you only need to heat things to 60C/145F to render the toxin harmless. I thought I was pretty specific about that in my post, but maybe not enough.

~gd, I am a biologist with an old-time home-ec-degree mother, I entirely do know the difference between discussion of killing C. botulinum spores versus denaturing the botulism toxin; and I am talking about inactivating the TOXIN here. REally really. Read any extension service site, or comparable food science source -- essentially all of them strongly advise boiling any questionable food (e.g. home pressure-canned, and yes, I mean PRESSURE-canned) hard for 10-20 minutes. They recommend that if there are actual *signs* that C. botulinum may have been growing, you do not even attempt to heat-denature and eat the food, you should dispose of it in a way unlikely to lead to further contamination of the area.

DrakeMaiden, people quite often DID get sick from water bath canning meat and veggies and stuff, it was lumped under the general heading of 'ptomaine poisoning', it used to be a not-uncommon cause of death. History. That said, much of it was probably avoidable by following better precautions.

Personally, if it were a matter of losing a large part of my crops in a severe famine versus water-bath canning low-acid things, I would for sure waterbath can them!! As carefully and conservatively as possible, but, you know, you have to have priorities I don't see any compelling reason for me to do it in the ABSENCE of facing a famine, though. But everyone's different.

Pat

 

[DrakeMaiden]

I wasn't talking about that, DrakeMaiden -- I was talking about whoever it was that cited a Wikipedia article as the source for the information that you only need to heat things to 60C/145F to render the toxin harmless. I thought I was pretty specific about that in my post, but maybe not enough.

. . .

They recommend that if there are actual *signs* that C. botulinum may have been growing, you do not even attempt to heat-denature and eat the food, you should dispose of it in a way unlikely to lead to further contamination of the area.

DrakeMaiden, people quite often DID get sick from water bath canning meat and veggies and stuff, it was lumped under the general heading of 'ptomaine poisoning', it used to be a not-uncommon cause of death. History. That said, much of it was probably avoidable by following better precautions.

I cited the wikipedia article, so it was my bad, especially since I would not recommend NOT boiling suspicious food.

So, Pat, what are the *signs* of botulism growth? I was under the impression that it was not something visible or discernible by smell. Do you mean like a can bulging or something?

Generally speaking, it doesn't surprise me that people died of poor food handling . . . that still happens today. What surprises me is that some people survived and yet did not use canning techniques that we now know are best. I guess I was trying to understand how that was possible, considering that everything I have ever learned suggested that botulism contamination leads invariably to instant and horrible death. I suspect it isn't quite that black & white and that proper food handling at all stages goes a long way toward preventing illness or death.

 

[patandchickens]

[I cited the wikipedia article, so it was my bad, especially since I would not recommend NOT boiling suspicious food.

Enh, I don't think you did anything at all WRONG, it is just that some other people on this thread were picking up on that one particular line in the Wikipedia entry and I am really really not convinced it necessarily means what they're thinking it means, you know? I *would* be curious to read that paper cited for the 60C/145F thing, but, not going to happen in my current lifestyle

So, Pat, what are the *signs* of botulism growth? I was under the impression that it was not something visible or discernible by smell. Do you mean like a can bulging or something?

I don't think you *can* necessarily notice Clostridial growth. This is pretty much the *reason* for the longstanding recommendation to boil home-pressure-canned food before eating... that you can*not* necessarily count on knowing if there is somethin' goin' on there. My point is more that I would not be trying to boil obviously-suspicious food and eat it -- except if you are next thing to death by starvation -- and I would not count on boiling to necessarily render ALL food safe. Hence the virtue of conservative canning methods.

everything I have ever learned suggested that botulism contamination leads invariably to instant and horrible death.

Well, it's not instant and I am under the impression -- I looked it up a few years ago, did some historical reading, I just don't remember for sure anymore (having children destroys brain cells ) -- that even *historically*, with poorer medical care, fatality rates were not necessarily more than 50-75%. These days, most adult food-origin botulism cases survive, with appropriate medical care. (Although obviously in the 'collapse of civilization' scenario that might not be so relevant)

I suspect the reason that, historically, people sometimes cut corners on canning (and other preserving and food-safety) techniques is the exact same reason that people do it TODAY -- you can get away with it a large proportion of the time. It's just that when you get unlucky, it can be pretty unlucky indeed.

Pat

 

[SKR8PN]

We had a couple of botulism poisoning in this area a couple of years back.
The Wife working at the hospital, in the capacity that she does, had access to some of the info............and I am here to tell you, it was not a pretty thing. DEFINITELY not something you want to to have to deal with.
Ventilators and stuff like that just ain't my idea of fun, if you know what I mean..........
I will continue to pressure can meats and anything else that the books say ya need to do and for the times they suggest. I really do not have time for a hospital stay or death............$.02