How much land do you have/need/want?

[bubba1358]

bubba1358 - blog looks good, I will be reading more of it as time allows. I had not thought about a donkey, I was wondering though the other day if a donkey would help protect the homestead from say a mountain lion or a bear... I need to research that! I noticed about 1 out of 5 farms up there had a donkey on them.

Thanks!

A donkey will protect its area from intrusion. Once it gets comfortable and knows that it is in its "home," then yes, it will fight to the death to keep larger predators out. It will not necessarily protect other animals, though, but if they share a "home" then it will.

Bears, IDK. Mountain lions, most likely. Coyotes (we have them in TN), absolutely. Cattle farms around will keep 3 or 4 donkeys as well - if the donkey runs with the cattle from its youth, then it will protect the herd, since they share the same area. Plus, donkeys are cheap and live upwards of 40 years. Mine is 11 this year.

 

[Pogo0685]

Good to know! I already have a BLM mustang and you can get BLM donkeys for $125 each so that could be a good plan. Now I get to tell the husband that we should get a donkey or two also! They are really adorable with those big fuzzy ears

 

[Icu4dzs]

Pogo0685, et. al
I have been sitting and thinking about your questions for a while and after reading the responses from the variety of folks who have advised you thus far (and I might add they have done so quite well for any number of well considered reasons) there remains some considerations that you might want to re-explore.

In the immortal words of Will Rogers, Land is the only thing they aint makin any more of.!. My point is that land, if properly managed will sooner or later yield a desired result. The question of sooner or later is the issue. In this case, with the significant problem of water availability, the approach may need to be altered.

What is he talking about? you must be asking. Well, the fact that the ground is so arid and it is hard to get enough water makes it somewhat less desirable if one is expecting to see the Garden of Eden spring up out of the desert without some change in the approach. Obviously, there are a number of issues that need to be evaluated here in order to consider what if anything needs to be changed.

Consider the first question.
Pogo says she is being financially choked by the high cost of the place she is on now. Yes, the acreage is adequate for a ss lifestyle but there is the issue of water and how to get water to crops. Secondly, the thought of arid soil should immediately make one consider a different approach to WHICH CROPS because there are more drought tolerant species of crops that may in fact be beneficial to her such as jojoba which is an oil producing plant that lives on essentially NO WATER. So rethinking exactly what crops to plant may in fact provide a better list of options, rather than trying to buy something somewhere else, with no house and start all over with nothing but debt.

While on the subject of water, there are several ways of dealing with water in the desert. The concept of drip irrigation rather than overhead watering has revolutionized agriculture in other areas of the world. The fact that she mentions the place being greener near the mountains in a subdivision really doesnt sound like a good idea because subdivisions usually find a way for some folks to assert their ways and rules on others, like minded or not. Trust me IT HAPPENS.

Assuming the age of Pogo and DH, many people work their entire lives to pay off that debt, but with the economy in the tank (and NO, I dont believe it is getting better no matter what the MSM is trying to feed us) she may want to consider whether that is where she really wants to be for the rest of her lifejust working to pay off that piece of property. Is there enough spare time between work hours and travel to actually get the place to a condition she desires? Only she knows that but it will take a long time.

Wanting to be in the mountains sounds very ideal and hip but there are so many other issues to consider that one has to decide whether there is long term stability in the concept regardless of the ideal setting that it seems to have now. Additionally, if giving up her 700 yard shooting range is unacceptable, then perhaps she might consider capitalizing on that and using it to make some extra cash.
The idea of living in a YURT in the mountains of Colorado sounds like a real hoot till winter comes, when it is hard to get out of the yurt and snow all around and difficult to get to the city where you need to be for work.

She gives the impression that the one real advantage she has is the promise of labor from those who wish to live with her(really? All those folks in a yurt?...mother-in-law included? I sure hope that is a VERY close knit family with clear lines of communication and trust. Women are known to be territorial when it comes to places like THEIR kitchen. Men have their issues as well, but they are different in their approach. The extra men in the community are going to (at some point) want to add women to the picture unless they are not interested in women, which makes that a different issue. Having the labor handy is certainly a better approach to getting things done, but still the cost of any job is still 33% materials. That has to be considered.

There are so many really good pieces of advice offered to Pogo here that I find it difficult to even consider offering any myself BUT there are SO MANY considerations to take into account before any decision can be made that it would be smart to look at them all first before spending a penny or moving anything anywhere. What are the others around Pogo doing? Are they successful doing that? If not, why not? 45 acres is quite a good spread and if planted with the right kinds of trees, bushes and crops that are drought tolerant, can be a wonderful family farm.

There is an old saying Bloom where you are planted and it appears that Pogo might want to consider this in her deliberations. 30 days of 100+ heat can be annoying but there are plenty of crops that can tolerate that and the human can adapt to heat a LOT easier than to cold.

Then there is the length of the growing season to consider which is invariably longer in the flat lands than in the mountains. Additionally, there are the energy production issues that are significantly better in the flats than in the mountains. Sun light and wind are NOT in short supply in those environments. She mentions aquaponics and the environment in which she now lives is ideal for that, assuming she can do something about her water dilemma. It isnt impossible, but it is difficult.

Wanting animals is a great idea but how are they going to eat? Animals must have water, PERIOD. That is NOT negotiable. I dont need to belabor that point.

What I am seeing here is Pogo wants to eat an elephant and isnt sure how to go about it. The answer for many ages has always been one bite at a time. She has a lot going for her. Perhaps using what she has is her best approach now rather than uprooting her entire life for a place where the grass is always greener.

Then there is the issue of the children and their education

Having some money to burn a hole in her pocket is the problem and Id suggest putting it in the bank and letting it sit there. It may not grow fast but it wont disappear on a long shot either.

Some of the advice Pogo was given was VERY sound. Downsize and down-expect! You cant have it all right now. Start with the first bite and go from there, IMHO

 

[Britesea]

Excellent advice as usual, Icu4dzs

 

[Pogo0685]

Icu4dzs - I can tell that your reply was extremely well thought out and I really welcome your input, you obviously know what your talking about and if was possible to stay where we are, we would have already dug a basement and started building an earth ship here. However we just can't stay here, my family believes that we (USA) are on the verge of a nuclear war with Russia, possibly china but more than likely Russia, either way, we are less than 5 miles from a very likely target. In all honesty I might be crazy about the whole thing, but any number of things could go seriously wrong and we are not a safe distance away from somewhere that could become catastrophic if something goes bad, that is the main reason for wanting to leave.

To touch on your other points, we looked at getting a well drilled here but the only water we can pull out of it is household (can not use to water trees or grass, not that I want grass but trees would be nice) and we can irrigate 1 acre of crops, trees, bushes, hay, grass whatever we want but no more than 1 acre. To get more than 1 acre allowance we need to buy water rights, and farmers just are not selling them right now, 50% or so of the crop fields around here have not been planted this year due to no water.

As for what the people around me do, we'll a few have wells, a few have extended water rights and run cattle. Most that run cattle out here haul in water from the city to fill their tanks and ponds for the cattle to drink. And one out of 5 people out here have "city" water taps but again they are not available to us unless we buy them from someone who wants to sell. We have seen one for sale in the last year, they wanted 18 grand in cash. Plus you gotta pay the county to have the water lines dug up and installed. We just don't have that kind of money.

And as for all of us living in one yurt, well that's just not going to happen. My husband and I will live in the yurt with my family (although we are once again considering a trailer after reading the book recommended to us in one of the first replies) and my brother and our friend will both live in camper trailers. The mother in law won't be coming to live with us until her husband dies and she sells her house and can then pay for a small cabin or something of the sort to be put on the land as well. We are buying in a county with almost nonexistent building codes. Only one of the properties we have seen is in a subdivision, but we are going back to look at a few more on Sunday and I think it's possible that a few of the ones we are looking at will be in a subdivision, one even has an HOA which I was not happy about but we read their by laws and the only thing they are there to enforce is solar or wind only community and road maintenance so I feel better about that now. If my brother or our friend wants to bring another female into the community they are free to do so as we will all have our own "houses" to live in. Although our friend has already been married and divorced 5 times so I don't see that happening anytime soon. My brother... Well it's a long shot but it could happen, and I hope it does!

Like I said I really appreciate all the thought you put into your reply and if we could stay here we probably would, it's just not going to happen due to the proximity we live to a disaster area. If we could stay though, your advise is amazing and I would definitely think about staying here as we are already here and half set up. Thank you again though!!

 

[Icu4dzs]

Pogo0685,
Now that you have mentioned THAT issue, my concerns change. Obviously, you are NOT ALONE in that very deep concern. I have had the very same concern for a number of years and it seems to me that each year we appear to get closer for any number of well thought-out reasons. Colorado is NOT a place I would want to be and there are lots of reasons for that. It would be important to realize however that if you are going to want to sell your current holdings, you probably won't want to discuss WHY you want to leave because no buyer will be interested in living at Groud Zero...
Then of course getting out yesterday would seem prudent. The question becomes what will you be willing to do to facilitate your journey to safety if your current resources are completely consumed by the place you are now?

Given your very clear reasons for wanting NOT to be living at what you perceive and is in all likelihood, Ground Zero (yes, I know the area of Colorado and it definitely has some very inviting targets for any enemy of the USA) my recommendation is to get out of CO altogether. Find some land that is still less than $1000/acre (which won't be in any of the environments you mention i your first post) and as long as you are going to have to leave your established home I'd want a LOT of distance between me that ground zero location.
That having been said, there are still quite a few places where the population density is less than 1/sq. mile and while there is probably good reason for that, the end result is that there are still a number of rather hearty souls who DO live there and have done so for quite some time. The ability to survive/live there is real and may in fact be more to your liking.

When I left the Navy as a retired guy, I went where the population was rather sparse. I got a farm (about 40 acres) and moved there with a few tools, my little tractor, my banjo and a few clothes. I was broke and had no job. My retirement pension is consumed by others. Since I was broke and had no job, that first winter of 2006-2007 was an exercise in austerity for a guy who had been accustomed to eating every day in the ships wardroom...you get that picture.

While I am not trying to make this about me, the point I am trying to make is that you might be much better off leaving where you are and going somewhere MUCH farther away from any location that might be deemed as a target of high value, and in most cases those are in areas of very dense population, most of whom are employed by the DoD for obvious reasons. Sometimes getting out while the getting is good out weighs the inertia caused by complacency of comfort. Think of the folks who packed a covered wagon, left the east coast and wandered out here on the prairie and started all over...

My guess is that you have a good group available to you. You have some resources, and some cash. You have a piece of property that you can probably sell to someone who does not consider the area a problem for them and go where you will. It appears that your method of income can be accomplished in nearly any location so that is an advantage. I'd consider selling what you don't need to start a new homestead (tools etc are the keepers) and give some serious consideration to buying some land with cash and skip town as soon as you can make it happen. With that size of a group, you would be able to accomplish a lot with very little cash outlay and be started on your own more safe environment. Of course the caveat here is that you always trust the guidance systems of the enemy missiles and believe in your heart that they are accurate...

I would make a plan. It would be find land with water. Make lists of what you want/absolutely need to re-settle there, make lists of exactly how much you are going to be able to generate in funds and put your move into stages where you can get the stuff you want to have there in place before you lock the doors on the old place, turn your back and never look behind you again.

There are ways of getting trailer homes that will be way better than a yurt and can withstand some more rigorous weather for very little money. You can live in that while you rebuild. Plan to stage your gear there during the winter and be prepared to leave for good at the time of last snow fall. Be ready to break ground for a garden and house at about the same time. Divide the labor between the men and the women so that everyone has an area of responsibility and that includes scavenging parts and pieces of building materials such as electrical gear. Don't buy stuff that is new...if it worked before, and it can be fixed go for it. Start small enough to survive the first warm season to prepare for the next cold season. Be certain to have enough grain, beans, salt, sugar,powdered milk, etc for the entire winter along with seeds for sprouting and planting in the spring. Check the LDS websites and do your preparations to move before you find yourself "stuck in place". You will need strength, spirit, courage and love between your entire group to make this happen but rest assured, you will be able to do it if you take the time to plan ahead and be systematic with your approach. and of course, don't forget to erect a small altar and place where you can worship G*d in your own way and offer gratitude for your many blessings to Him who provides for us all. He will provide and see you through this. Don't be discouraged by any who will find reasons to discount HIS power and might. They are NOT your friends. HE IS.

Homeschool is OK but requires time and patience. Your computer is a great resource. Wireless Internet is most valuable.

It may be that you have to give up a lot of "creature comfort" for a pretty long while at first, but the peace of mind you'll achieve will in many ways make up for that. If you do it before you find out that you can only take what you can carry on your back and even then will have to 'swim against the human tide of violence/panic, etc. you may be very glad you got up the courage to pick up and leave.

I have a friend in Colorado who is in a nearly exactly similar situation but he is living in an RV. If you want, I'll get you in touch with him and he may be able to give you some assistance considering the fact that he is making some of the same choices you want to make.

PM me if you are interested. To my way of thinking, Colorado is a great place to be leaving...and not returning till the fallout has dissipated.

Ymmv

 

[Hinotori]

Ok, with all the talk here of fallout and the fact I just re-read Alas, Babylon last week, I think I'll just post this link here.

http://www.carloslabs.com/node/20

It's a ground zero calculation map. Gives you options of bomb and the area covered by the thermal and pressure blast as well as fallout. You just put in your city of choice.

I know with the big base to the west of us, we are probably doomed here. All depends on how the wind is.


Oh and Alas, Babylon is a very good read. I first read it back in grade school and have reread it many times. I also liked Children of the Dust. There are some more post nuclear books I read back in middle school that I cannot remember the names of.

These books reminded me that a non-electric source of uncontaminated water is a must. I'd think that a hand pumped well would be at risk of the pump itself being contaminated, but then a house over the well would help keep it clean.


ETA: Here's an LDS food storage calculator http://lds.about.com/library/bl/faq/blcalculator.htm

My Great Aunt thinks I've converted to Mormon because of my food storage. Her daughter married to a Mormon and they have good food stores. My uncle has always keep a well stocked pantry. He cans most of what they eat. My brother and SIL are trying to get a good pantry going, but complain about space. Ffft. Their house is twice the size of mine and they have a shed and large detached garage. They can make room if they are creative.

 

[Hinotori]

Wanted to add as well that need to store real books with needed info. I have way to many books out in storage as well as inside. But we will have entertainment and info.

 

[Britesea]

Something of concern is the possibility of our government confiscating food and water supplies in the event of an emergency- to be redistributed to those that did not prepare. so that we can ALL starve a little more slowly.

Mormons will be among those targeted first. I was thinking about this though, and considering that I can't even donate my home-canned foods to the food bank, I am reasonably certain that the only food that would be confiscated would be commercially preserved foods; which means I will stop buying cans of soup and green beans, etc, and only stock my home preserved foods.

I don't know if my garden would be safe, but I think the livestock might be- since the people doing the looting (oops, pardon me, I meant redistributing) are unlikely to be country folks that know what to do to turn a squawking, flapping, chit machine into a bucket of KFC.

Of course, this assumes that the good folks breaking down my door just want my food and aren't interested in rounding my family up to march us to a camp will-ye, nill-ye. If that happens, well, all bets are off and it won't matter very much WHERE one lives.

 

[Icu4dzs]

Wanted to add as well that need to store real books with needed info. I have way to many books out in storage as well as inside. But we will have entertainment and info.

A very astute observation Hinotori...
I've felt the same way for quite a long time. One thing is for certain, the books will still work even if the electricity goes out. One of my friends in town gave me the entire set of 1974 World Book Encyclopedia and the year book for every year since including 2013. I've been collecting books on "how to..." for quite some time because in the event that I need something, my guess is that I will probably have to do it myself...assuming the materials to do it are still available in some way. I guess that is why I loved the TV show "Junk Yard Wars" because they gave a hand full of guys all the tools they wanted, put them in a junk yard and pitted them against each other in a contest to make a "?" thing. What a hoot. Those guys were so creative. I loved watching and learning how they think.

I noticed that Britesea made an observation about the gumint confiscating our food supplies for "re-distribution" and find that very interesting observation that they are mostly interested in "commercially preserved foods". That never occurred to me that they would do that but why? are the folks getting the benefit of the "re-distribution" too lazy to cook for themselves?

I guess what concerns me is the fact that there is even a thought that the folks who operate and administer our Constitution would even consider violating our privacy because "the king declared an edict" to allow it. What happened to our nation that the "King" has the right to issue "edicts" (or executive orders...if you will) in order to force communism down our throats. How clever. G*d save the "King". (or something like that...)