Is self sufficiency sustainability?

[redux]

sustainability is a big word

in this society as it is RARE some can be truly sustainable "who" wants too in this society ya can't truly do it lol

and it is not going back to the "olden times" soon

Well that's the thing, exactly, FC. We are an industrialized society. We are not going to go back to being an agrarian society. So that is not worth even discussing. We have to deal with the reality of the way things are, and figure out the way each of us can live our lives with the least amount of damage to the planet. If it means "buying green" and that is all we can do - then we do it. We don't all have homesteads. Some of us have to live in cities in the real world and can't grow our own, make our own, etc. But we can recycle. And we can find ways to use less energy. We can walk more, drive less. We can buy from farmers who use sustainable practices.

There is not only one way to do things. There are levels of sustainability.

 

[patandchickens]

IMO it depends what you mean by self-sufficiency. As some have pointed out above, the world's current population cannot ALL live on 40-acre tracts of land on which they do farmstead-scale farming, harvest firewood sustainably, raise their own flax and sheep for textile production, etc etc. And for some people, camping out in the backwoods (or in the non back woods, but doing all sorts of fairly land-intensive crunchy earthy things) IS what 'self sufficiency' means.

OTOH if by 'self sufficiency' one means "doing only what is SUFFICIENT for oneself, and doing it oneSELF when possible" then that *is* a fairly sustainable thing, certainly the most sustainable alternative that's available to the way the world is running nowadays.

If people USED LESS, and used less complicated fancy things, and reused things more and made/fixed things more themselves, our society WOULD be much more sustainable from the perspective of energy, environment, etc. (Possibly politically too. Although, human nature being what it is, I don't think I'm really convinced on that one )

But to the extent that "self sufficiency" means buying a kit with glycerine and molds and scents to "make your own soap", no, that is not doing much of anything towards a more sustainable future specifically

JMHO,

Pat

 

[Buster]

Well that's the thing, exactly, FC. We are an industrialized society. We are not going to go back to being an agrarian society.

That is most certainly debatable.

Our industrialized system is unsustainable because it is run almost entirely on fossil fuels, which are eventually going to run out. When they do, our only hope is to revert to a more agrarian society based on a network of strong local economies.

The efficiencies of the current system are all illusions. It takes 10 calories on average to bring a single calorie of food to the table.

Please tell me how that is "efficient".

 

[big brown horse]

Right on Buster!!!

Merurika: TOGA TOGA TOGA!! Actually togas are pretty comfy!

Good points Pat. Good points everyone!

Now I live on a perfect 5 acres set up for self sufficient living very well, I can't complain. The previous owners were very self sufficient and molded this property very well. The hard parts were already done for me.

However, I lived almost 10 years in the INNER-city from 99-08. I did what I could to lessen my footprint, save money and try to live as self sufficient as possible.

I walked EVERYWHERE; work, the farmer's market (we had 2 that I could get to on foot...and that was HOUSTON man!), the parks, the museums and even the zoo if I had on good shoes.

The two farmer's markets had almost everything I needed esp. since I was vegetarian back then. Because it was S. TX, veggies were available year round.

Inner city Houston also had community gardens all over. One was right by my house and it was over the size of a city lot. The gardeners all traded with each other and also held a little farmer's market of their own to pay for their rent. It was awesome!

My good friend that I worked with brought me eggs from her urban micro-farm. I gave her tons of herbs from my garden in exchange. Although I could have had a chicken or two in my backyard b/c there were no zoning laws.

My itty bitty yard was all 100% garden in the front (where it was sunny) and mulched in the back for the dogs (it was 100% shaded all the time), I havn't owned a lawn mower for years. I composted all my kitchen waste too.

I reused, recycled and made do with almost everything...though looking back I could have done even more.

All the cooking water and rinse water from hand washing my dishes went to that garden. I saved rain water too.

I cooked all the meals for us everyday...I wish I had known about "rocket stoves" back then.

I kept my lights off during the day.

I didn't use chemical cleaners.

I line dried our clothes. (It took seconds in the TX sun.) You could even line dry inside!!

I loved finding great used clothes at the many, many thrift stores around my neighborhood. I got most of what I needed there actually. Funny thing is there were hip clothing stores popping up everywhere that were all the rage b/c they sold "vintage" clothes...the mark up was unbelieveable!!

I wish I had the knowledge then that I have now. I could have done a heck of a lot more in many ways. Thank you SuffifientSelf!!!

I actually loved my city life. It was fast paced and exciting, loud and wild. I lived in an artsy neighborhood where the people were all different colors and very open minded. I loved that!! Halloween was always a BLAST!! You never knew what to expect. But I digress...


The point being, no matter where you live you can do a lot more than you think to lessen your "footprint" and live as self sufficiently as possible with what you have. It may not be 100% self sufficient or 100% sustainable, but you can still make a big difference.

ETA: Yes I think I lived and am living a more ecological sustainable life.

 

[cmjust0]

And how many of those cans that the store sells are reused/recycled? 75%? 50%? 30%? Let's use my street as an example. It's a block long with 14 houses. Of those houses, 2 recycle. Me and one other neighbor. I can tell you that not every single can in our house gets recycled and I'm sure that the other neighbor is the same. Let's assume that we are recycling every can though. That is 2 out of 14 or 15%. Take that and apply it to all of the cans produced and that is a 15% rate of POSSIBLE reusability. Of my glass jars that I have for canning, I've reused 100% of them and even a few from the stores (anyone else like the atlas jars that canning lids fit?). I still stand by my argument that intentional or not the SS lifestyle is significantly more sustainable than the "traditional" lifestyle.

I see your point, but the question is...if everyone canned at home, would the savings of tin cans equal the cost of a vast, vast number of consumer-grade stoves running?

I dunno...can't say with any certainty, of course, but I kinda doubt it. Plus, you'd have to factor in what it would take to supply that many people with jars in the first place, and I'm guessing there's a whole lot more energy that goes into making a glass jar than a tin can. But, that's speculation too..

 

[cmjust0]

]
BUT..........at least MY home canned green beans aren't loaded up with SODIUM and other preservatives, that, in the long run, cost everyone a hellova lot more in medical bills and lost health. I'll take my time consuming gardening and home canning just for that benefit alone, thankyouverymuch!

Yeah, but now you're talking better instead of more sustainable.. I agree -- they're better -- but that's not at question here..

One more thing your leaving out.....while that pressure canner is cooking my home grown green beans, I am free to do a LOT of other things, like weave a new rug on my loom, or, plant the next crop of onions, or any one of a number of things that WILL save me time elsewhere, not to mention the FREE psychiatric soothing that I get from watching those green beans grow.
That in and of itself is priceless.

Those are all things you could be doing while a gigantic big machine in a factory somewhere makes cans of green beans for you, though.. No real savings.

 

[cmjust0]

So industrial agriculture, fertilized with petroleum products and shipped for miles with all attendant ecological consequences, is more sustainable than growing and preserving your own food from your own back yard? I am surprised at that position, coming from you, bib.

Cmjus01 on the other hand... well, I''ve learned to never to be surprised about anything.

And I mean that affectionately to both of you.

You're missing the point... If all the industrial ag and petroleum and shipping went into producing food just for you, then yeah, your way is much more efficient.. That's not how it works, though; all that stuff produces food for MILLIONS.

What I'm saying is that if all those MILLIONS for whom industrial ag is currently producing food started producing it for themselves, the process would be far less efficient than it is today.. With inefficiency comes a whole lot of waste. With waste comes unsustainability.

 

[redux]

Well that's the thing, exactly, FC. We are an industrialized society. We are not going to go back to being an agrarian society.

That is most certainly debatable.

Our industrialized system is unsustainable because it is run almost entirely on fossil fuels, which are eventually going to run out. When they do, our only hope is to revert to a more agrarian society based on a network of strong local economies.

The efficiencies of the current system are all illusions. It takes 10 calories on average to bring a single calorie of food to the table.

Please tell me how that is "efficient".

I don't recall saying that was efficient. I merely said that is the way it is. People in cities are not suddenly going to start growing their own food - they don't have the resources. I live in the city. I cannot be "self sufficient" in the way that many people on this forum can be. It's just the fact of my life and there is not much I can do about it. So I do what I can.

 

[big brown horse]

There are a million (NOT JOKING!) glass canning jars at the thrift stores AND if you use an outdoor rocket stove you would only need a little yard waste to fuel it.

All of my "fermenting crocks" I got at a thrift store.

Glass jars and crocks would be a one time investment. Lids and seals on the other hand, I don't know, I'm really not a canner, but they are much smaller than a whole can that grocery store veggies come in.

Plus most of those canned veggies are fertilized with chemical fertilizers (made with fossil fuel) and are from genetically modified seeds or genetically modified "round up ready" seeds.

 

[cmjust0]

I wouldn't eat a $0.36 can of beans if you paid me. Just eat some styrofoam and get it over with.

I would. I have. I do.

Fact is, if our goals are to become self-sufficient, then letting someone else do something cheaper, faster, and easier than we can do it and saving ourselves the money, time, and frustration can help us get to our goals -- if we do it right!

For many -- scratch that...for most -- living cheaply is a HUGE part of self sufficiency. Whatever helps us do that is beneficial. It's one thing to become reliant on $.36 cans of beans so we can afford x-boxes and new cars, but if you put the savings toward existing debt or the purchase of land or...well, you see where I'm going.