Britesea
Sustainability Master
I've wondered what "free range" means to some people also... Pictures of herding cattle on horseback come to mind though...
Management practices to improve livestock food production~meat, eggs, milk, etc.
- Thread starter Beekissed
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farmerjan
Super Self-Sufficient
I don't often come on this site, mostly due to time and our being more of a "commercial type farm operation" than a homesteading type, although I am at heart a "homestead" type of person. But a few thoughts on the whole "free range" concept and what all the "idealistic but not actually practicing" know it all people say and do.
Technically, free range is something that runs free without any boundaries. So "technically" birds that are in any way contained are not free range.
That said, if any of these know it alls have ever watched predators carry off animals, they might be a little more accepting of some "protection" for the animals. In this case, addressing poultry.
If you have chickens in a poultry netting enclosure, they have access to the outside, and can eat, scratch, forage for bugs, grass, weeds, seeds, worms and whatever. They also have protection from predators on the ground from the security of the electric netting. They do not have protection from predators from the air. One of the biggest problems in some areas.
If you utilize a "chicken tractor " of some sort, they get the benefits of pasture raised with protection from most all predators. And moving it regularly keeps the ground "clean" and they get the best of alot of things. Yes, some predators can dig under but moving the "tractor" daily does alot to discourage many from getting comfortable and then trying to find a way in underneath.
I ran 150+ layers free range for several years. Ran out on a 25 acre pasture with the cows. They didn't travel more than several hundred feet from the trailer coops that they went into at night. Provided eggs to the local co-op. I dealt with the occasional fox during the day, and the miserable "oh my dog would never do that" predations of local dogs that would get out there and run the birds, and the cows in the pasture.
If I were late getting them locked in at night I had possums and coons to deal with. But you expect a few to get lost to varmints.
My biggest problem was the miserable D@#neD EAGLES.
Yes, they moved in and there was one that took to carrying off a bird nearly every day. 
A few neighbors not too far away liked to watch them and because some had been "chipped" before they were released, there was no question of possibly SSS.... I lost 122 to eagles one year,
with another neighbor showing me at least a half dozen that the eagle had dropped in their yard because they were too heavy (?) or whatever. 
I listened to these idiots say that the price of the free range eggs were getting too high, that the chickens were eating less feed so it cost less to feed them so the eggs ought to be cheaper.
Then when I tried to explain about the eagle getting them, they had the audacity to first tell me that I should do a better job of protecting them from the eagle, and really the eagle had to eat too
... So after telling them that the pullets cost $10 a piece to replace, that that was the reason why their "free range eggs" were not less than but more than any eggs from a normal operation where the birds had some confinement and protection.
That was it for me. I just got tired of dealing with those that know it all, and really have no clue.
So the next time someone starts in on the "free range" thing, explain that you will not subject your chickens to that form of lack of care and concern for their well being.
In operations where you can let them free range, and have a guardian dog of some sort....then you mostly always have that dog in a fence, so they are not TECHNICALLY free range.
Call people to task when they start to espouse some "ideal" that the animal has to be free range or all natural or something. In REAL NATURE, it isn't all "Bambi and Thumper and Flower" ..Because nature is the survival of the fittest and they would not like the blood and guts that goes along with REAL NATURE.
We are stewards of the earth and the animals that we are responsible for. I don't like confinement housing, and I like to have animals in the most natural setting that I can, and that is PRACTICAL and SAFE for them. But I am tired of all these know more than me, but no practical experience idiots; that have all the answers and think that it is all a utopia state in the real world of nature.
Technically, free range is something that runs free without any boundaries. So "technically" birds that are in any way contained are not free range.
That said, if any of these know it alls have ever watched predators carry off animals, they might be a little more accepting of some "protection" for the animals. In this case, addressing poultry. If you have chickens in a poultry netting enclosure, they have access to the outside, and can eat, scratch, forage for bugs, grass, weeds, seeds, worms and whatever.
They also have protection from predators on the ground from the security of the electric netting. They do not have protection from predators from the air. One of the biggest problems in some areas.If you utilize a "chicken tractor " of some sort, they get the benefits of pasture raised with protection from most all predators. And moving it regularly keeps the ground "clean" and they get the best of alot of things.
Yes, some predators can dig under but moving the "tractor" daily does alot to discourage many from getting comfortable and then trying to find a way in underneath.I ran 150+ layers free range for several years. Ran out on a 25 acre pasture with the cows. They didn't travel more than several hundred feet from the trailer coops that they went into at night. Provided eggs to the local co-op. I dealt with the occasional fox during the day, and the miserable "oh my dog would never do that" predations of local dogs that would get out there and run the birds, and the cows in the pasture.
If I were late getting them locked in at night I had possums and coons to deal with. But you expect a few to get lost to varmints.My biggest problem was the miserable D@#neD EAGLES.
Yes, they moved in and there was one that took to carrying off a bird nearly every day. A few neighbors not too far away liked to watch them and because some had been "chipped" before they were released, there was no question of possibly SSS.... I lost 122 to eagles one year, with another neighbor showing me at least a half dozen that the eagle had dropped in their yard because they were too heavy (?) or whatever. I listened to these idiots say that the price of the free range eggs were getting too high, that the chickens were eating less feed so it cost less to feed them so the eggs ought to be cheaper. Then when I tried to explain about the eagle getting them, they had the audacity to first tell me that I should do a better job of protecting them from the eagle, and really the eagle had to eat too ... So after telling them that the pullets cost $10 a piece to replace, that that was the reason why their "free range eggs" were not less than but more than any eggs from a normal operation where the birds had some confinement and protection.That was it for me. I just got tired of dealing with those that know it all, and really have no clue.
So the next time someone starts in on the "free range" thing, explain that you will not subject your chickens to that form of lack of care and concern for their well being.
In operations where you can let them free range, and have a guardian dog of some sort....then you mostly always have that dog in a fence, so they are not TECHNICALLY free range.
Call people to task when they start to espouse some "ideal" that the animal has to be free range or all natural or something. In REAL NATURE, it isn't all "Bambi and Thumper and Flower" ..Because nature is the survival of the fittest and they would not like the blood and guts that goes along with REAL NATURE.We are stewards of the earth and the animals that we are responsible for. I don't like confinement housing, and I like to have animals in the most natural setting that I can, and that is PRACTICAL and SAFE for them. But I am tired of all these know more than me, but no practical experience idiots; that have all the answers and think that it is all a utopia state in the real world of nature.
farmerjan
Super Self-Sufficient
On the pasture topic, Greg Judy came to one of our cattle conferences and he has been very successful in the rotational grazing/forage/grass management part of farming. I have learned from some of his talks and read some of his books. We try to practice some of what he preaches..... because much of it is basic sound advise.
Anytime you can add organic matter of any type back into the soil you are adding value.
Anytime you can add organic matter of any type back into the soil you are adding value.
- Thread starter
- #14
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
Depends on how you are doing it. I've been free ranging for over 40 yrs now and grand total of birds taken by preds are around 10-12. And we are surrounded by thousands of acres of woodland, with all the usual suspects present and accounted for.
farmerjan
Super Self-Sufficient
Okay, so what are you doing different to not lose birds?????
- Thread starter
- #16
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
I free range and have done so for 40 + years with huge success and with and without dogs guarding the flocks. Very few losses over the years at all, even with bald eagles landing in the fields next to mine to feast on carrion, hawks galore, osprey and great horned owls. The usual 4 legged preds abound here and have in most places I've lived and had flocks.
Last I checked I'm still living on this plane of being in the actual real world.
It CAN be done and done safely without putting birds in constant and present danger.
The dogs are in a half acre wireless fence and the chickens free range over 3+acres around that half acre. No actual fencing around that range area except the invisible one holding in the dogs. Maybe a commercial operation isn't actually free ranging birds, but homesteaders can and do technically free range.
If you utilize a "chicken tractor " of some sort, they get the benefits of pasture raised with protection from most all predators. And moving it regularly keeps the ground "clean" and they get the best of alot of things.
Sorry...I've seen the chicken tractors, particular the meat bird setups, and there is no benefit to being on pasture at all except getting to move off the poopy ground now and again. The minute that tractor moves, the ground is being fouled by feces from many birds on a small space and few bugs will stick around under that many trampling feet. And, inside the tractor is free choice feed...no bird is going to forage if the feed is right there to be had. They don't get the best of anything in that situation...they are being baked under a tin roof in the summer, overcrowded and unable to exercise freely past the 10x10 ft space, and are merely eating commercial feeds. NO benefit at all except maybe semi fresh air and grass underfoot instead of a broiler house ventilation and litter.
Why would they when free choice food is available right at the trailer? Chickens are opportunistic feeders and the easiest opportunity is at the trailer. Birds that don't get free choice feed all day range WAY far from the coop to hunt...even CX broilers.
The same flock later....and I didn't lose a single bird of those 54 that year as they free ranged far out of the range of the coop and the dog's protection.
Again....
Anyone who loses 122 birds in one season truly cannot ever accuse anyone else of having a lack of care or concern for their chickens. Ever.In 40+ years of free ranging flocks of 30-50+ birds I've lost around 10-12 total to predators. And, yes, we have all the same predators everyone else has and more than most. Got to have the right system, the right flock, the right dogs and the right attitude to get it right.
Usually I don't even respond to such a post as this but there is so much blatant untruth and bitter bile in it that I felt compelled to. Just because it can't be done by you doesn't mean it can't be done at all and it has been done by many quite successfully.
- Thread starter
- #17
Beekissed
Mountain Sage
milkmansdaughter
Super Self-Sufficient
@Beekissed and @farmerjan, I appreciate both viewpoints. I do not have the long term experience of either of you.
@farmerjan, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with free ranging! Where you free ranged your chickens, was it mostly open land where eagles had easy access? (I'm from dairy land, and envision open pasture land for your cows...) I have a much smaller flock than you had (about 30 right now, mostly layers, but some pullets, and some meat chickens), but there are a lot of trees on our property (pecan, oak, pine, mixed hard and soft). Hawks sit in the top of a dying tree right in the middle of the yard every day, but they don't have a big open area to easily get the chickens, and most of the chickens are smart enough to avoid the really open areas. They have a big open area (over an acre) in front of the house, and also a multi acre open field next to the property but the chickens rarely range there. The ones who do tend to be picked off pretty quick. They free range over about 6 acres, but they have access to much more (no dog, two roosters), no fences, with very few losses. They do have a coop that I close at night. (So maybe that's not technically free range.)
We also have plenty of natural predators, but the worst, like you mentioned, have been dogs who show up just for the fun of it, often in packs. But owl, hawks, coyote, fox, coon, possums, snakes, etc are all common here.
I rarely buy pullets, preferring to have my own raised by a range savvy broody hen. They are out on the land usually by about 2 weeks old, and are scratching in dirt almost as soon as they are hatched. Our roosters have been raised here, and do their job well.
I usually don't have any food out during the day, and only feed in the late afternoon. Lately it's been extremely dry so they've gotten a little more food than normal. I try to only put out what they will eat about an hour or so before roosting, leaving as little as possible to invite other animals. The most I've lost in a day (so far in 3 years, and thanking God!) has been two, and that was to a 4 pack of stray dogs that had been in the neighborhood for weeks.
So admittedly, my experience is very limited, as I've only had chickens for 3 years. They could all be lost tomorrow. But so far, free ranging has worked very well for us.
@Beekissed, thanks for the videos and links! I have only just recently heard of Greg Judy, and his videos just seem to be common (maybe not-so-common) sense. And your chicken videos do too. I'm glad I read some of your stuff when we first got chickens. I'm convinced that it has saved us a lot of heartache, time, and money!
@farmerjan, I'm sorry you've had such a bad experience with free ranging! Where you free ranged your chickens, was it mostly open land where eagles had easy access? (I'm from dairy land, and envision open pasture land for your cows...) I have a much smaller flock than you had (about 30 right now, mostly layers, but some pullets, and some meat chickens), but there are a lot of trees on our property (pecan, oak, pine, mixed hard and soft). Hawks sit in the top of a dying tree right in the middle of the yard every day, but they don't have a big open area to easily get the chickens, and most of the chickens are smart enough to avoid the really open areas. They have a big open area (over an acre) in front of the house, and also a multi acre open field next to the property but the chickens rarely range there. The ones who do tend to be picked off pretty quick. They free range over about 6 acres, but they have access to much more (no dog, two roosters), no fences, with very few losses. They do have a coop that I close at night. (So maybe that's not technically free range
.) We also have plenty of natural predators, but the worst, like you mentioned, have been dogs who show up just for the fun of it, often in packs. But owl, hawks, coyote, fox, coon, possums, snakes, etc are all common here.
I rarely buy pullets, preferring to have my own raised by a range savvy broody hen. They are out on the land usually by about 2 weeks old, and are scratching in dirt almost as soon as they are hatched. Our roosters have been raised here, and do their job well.
I usually don't have any food out during the day, and only feed in the late afternoon. Lately it's been extremely dry so they've gotten a little more food than normal. I try to only put out what they will eat about an hour or so before roosting, leaving as little as possible to invite other animals. The most I've lost in a day (so far in 3 years, and thanking God!) has been two, and that was to a 4 pack of stray dogs that had been in the neighborhood for weeks.
So admittedly, my experience is very limited, as I've only had chickens for 3 years. They could all be lost tomorrow. But so far, free ranging has worked very well for us.
@Beekissed, thanks for the videos and links! I have only just recently heard of Greg Judy, and his videos just seem to be common (maybe not-so-common) sense. And your chicken videos do too. I'm glad I read some of your stuff when we first got chickens. I'm convinced that it has saved us a lot of heartache, time, and money!
frustratedearthmother
Sustainability Master
Hi @farmerjan - Welcome to SS. I promise there are some nice folks around here! I enjoy seeing different outlooks and hearing different experiences. I hope you'll stick around and share your wisdom.
Mini Horses
Sustainability Master
Even with a fenced area, my chickens "free" range. Those rascals can go over a fence! They are normally one or two, because they CAN roam several fenced acres anytime they want. My heavier girls don't want to jump as much. I have several roosters who alert.
I have had the one or two roamers taken a couple times, a watchful fox or hawk gets them. Most will stay closer to the coop -- which I DO CLOSE THEM INTO at night. MY biggest predators are mostly night hunting possum, fox or owl. Lost my guineas to the owl! Told them, IN the coop not ON the coop roof. Wouldn't listen.
The area in which you live will be HUGE in how your birds can live (or not) free range. I have some trees. I do not have a dog. But, I do have mini horses and large goats moving all day...chickens among them or their fields, often in their sheds. This does help to discourage the type predator I have to some degree. Night...no help because goats & horses are in their barns. Chickens are but, door closed! It's my way and what works here.
I have several roosters who alert.I have had the one or two roamers taken a couple times, a watchful fox or hawk gets them. Most will stay closer to the coop -- which I DO CLOSE THEM INTO at night. MY biggest predators are mostly night hunting possum, fox or owl. Lost my guineas to the owl! Told them, IN the coop not ON the coop roof. Wouldn't listen.
The area in which you live will be HUGE in how your birds can live (or not) free range. I have some trees. I do not have a dog. But, I do have mini horses and large goats moving all day...chickens among them or their fields, often in their sheds. This does help to discourage the type predator I have to some degree. Night...no help because goats & horses are in their barns. Chickens are but, door closed! It's my way and what works here.
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