Obama finally called them out

[Big Daddy]

Whether you mean to or not, it simply is condescending to tell someone that if they really believe what is being "fed them" (as in a baby), there's no point in discussing it further.

See above response to VT. Some of us seem to approach debates about gov't with more pessimism, optimism or realism, whichever place you fall on the spectrum.

I understand distrusting a politician or administration so much that you don't believe a word from their mouths. That's where I was for the past 7 years. However, that administration earned their distrust from me. How has this one in such a short time? How has this Congress in such a short time?

In my opinion the hatred against the current admin is caused by.

1. The current admin and what they did to the economy and the job market.

2. Most complaining is from staunch conservatives that are upset that there is a Democrat in the White House.

3. The current admin is proposing actions that are good for all instead of just a chosen few.

4. Then there is just a smidgen of racism coloring the whole thing. Evidence of that can be found in what right wing radio and TV celebrities say and by a lot of the placards at the tea bagger rallys.

 

[Wifezilla]

The race card? Seriously?

 

[Wifezilla]

Of course it counts, but please don't ask others to not dare to speak for you. You are one voice and there are many others who are in your situation and may not feel the same as you.

Unless you are uninsured, you really don't have the right to speak on my behalf. If you are uninsured, you have your opinion and I have mine. No problem. As for others in my situation on this board and this thread....who are they?

Who else may have to be fired from their family business because they can't buy government mandated insurance? Who else has to do the math and figure out if it is better to pay the fine or find a plan they don't want? Who else has spent the last 2 years researching to solve their own health problems...many of which I fixed by going totally against government health recommendations?

Nobody speaks for me but me. There are plenty others like me. Pretending we don't exist will not make us go away.

If you have insurance and you are happy. GREAT! Stop trying to help me by driving me in to the poor house. If you know someone without insurance who needs help...go cut them a check. I or the government need not be involved in any way shape or form.

 

[patandchickens]

If we're going to debate something, how about it at least be the MERITS of the proposal/issue.

I think it is futile and misguided to argue about whether "the majority" want "this". Nobody will ever agree about whether "the majority" want "this", and as a general statement like that I think it's unanswerable and irrelevant anyhow.

Some reasons:

-- different polls ask things different ways, so the number of people saying they agree with the idea of universal healthcare will be different than those saying they agree with [their impression of] the current proposal or the number saying they agree with any other particular, sometimes-slantedly-phrased, version of the question.

-- it is A HEALTHY AND NATURAL AND GOOD THING that there will be a large number of people who vigorously disagree with *any* particular policy, proposed or actual. Just because some folks disagree vigorously, maybe even for reasonable reasons, does not prove it's necessarily a bad idea.

-- at no point in this country's history have policy or laws ever been determined by telepathically polling the populace What matters is how the *voting segment* of the population elects *congressmen* (which is geographically etc weighted) and what those elected representatives *compromise on*.

-- I mention compromise because if something could only pass if "most" people, even just most congressmen, agreed with it in every detail, NOTHING would ever happen and the system would collapse. People often speak of compromise as bad and cynical, and sometimes it is, but quite often it is *necessary* and *reasonable*. "I can't get exactly what I want but this is close enough and better than nothing".

If it were *possible* to factually determine what "the majority" "want" about "this", that would be one thing, although still of less than 100% full relevance... but since it isn't possible to do that, what is the point of going on and making claims about it.

Unless you are uninsured, you really don't have the right to speak on my behalf. If you are uninsured, you have your opinion and I have mine.<snip> Nobody speaks for me but me. <snip> Stop trying to help me by driving me in to the poor house. If you know someone without insurance who needs help...go cut them a check. I or the government need not be involved in any way shape or form.

Wifezilla, I know this is an important issue to you, but please remember there are two DIFFERENT things here.

Nobody (that I have noticed) has been "speaking for you" in the sense of saying "Wifezilla wants suchandsuch". Only you get to say that.

However, EVERYBODY gets an equal voice about what should be done, because it does not affect only you, it affects everyone.


Pat, who has been uninsured for long stretches of time in the past but tries to look at things from a national rather than a personal perspective as much as possible

 

[reinbeau]

I can't remember where I just saw that...but I will find true numbers to prove the majority wants it...cause I know they do at this point.

You can't take something like slavery and compare it with healthcare. That is just useless.

Also I said, everyone wants a change mostly. Just depends on how it happens and some say govt should step in others say no.

I don't think no one wants "everyone not to have medical coverage". It is the steps we take to get there.

I'm not equating slavery with health care. I'm showing where the majority isn't always right - but I still don't think you've got a majority that is for Obamacare. Note what I said. Not for change in health care, but for the Obama style plan.

 

[reinbeau]

I'm always amused that the minority thinks they represent the majority. Beck gets 15000 people to show up at the capital

Wow, you've dropped it to a new low. Even the DC fire department estimated it to be 75,000, although Homeland Security's website said 1.3 million. Love those statistics, don't we?

 

[FarmerChick]

race card does play in this. there are MANY who will never, ever accept one word from this Presidents mouth. don't be naive this doesn't happen. it is out there. we all heard it at some point and pretending it does not exist is just sad.

then there is everything Wife said. She has her opinion but to counteract that for every word she said, someone says the opposite. There are many losing their business today and those many still want healthcare for everyone.

yes it is a republic not a democracy but when the majority of the nation wants something from a republic they should listen. plus they see from a national view--the country is dying from healthcare problems. simple as that. without people there is no nation. take care of the people, strong to work and make costs work better for us on a whole is what a nation is supposed to do when we are like us--the United States of America.

and it is true, the majority wants healthcare reform. exactly how much, by whom, etc. is all in play here, but for me, personally, I am saying I want govt help to get in here and fix this monster problem. well, not fix but put it in a road to the future instead of the sad system we have now.

and it takes radical change.

and Big Daddy is right. There are tons of factors that weigh in about current admin and that colors their agenda. You don't see past the "oh my a democrat, nothing he says will matter" and more. It stops many people on a low level before the admin. has time to show what it might can do to help us. Me&thegals is right. Time to see if the admin. is worthy or not worthy of moaning yet. They haven't "done" anything yet.

and Big Daddy is also right about people yelling "I am dying" because a bill was enacted. "my insurance changed, they are trying to kill me" EVEN BEFORE it truly as any time to ripple.


Come on everyone. We all know the ifs, ands, and buts, of this whole situation.

Change is needed. Change is happening. For me, I hope they insure everyone somehow and I want to see a radical change in how this nation treats its citizens!

 

[FarmerChick]

even if the majority wanted slavery still in that moment in time, it still would have eventually changed. It just might have taken more years.

and remember, the Civil war was not about slavery from the onset. Lincoln had no intention of "freeing those slaves" to start a war. It was all about economy, greed, money, and import taxes and all. Slavery was in the North also. (but please lets not start on the civil war..LOL)

Admins from the past have done nothing. If Lincoln did not free the slaves the next admin. probably would have....it shows growth of a people. So if nothing has been done for healthcare from past admins...now it is time for the current admin. to tackle it!



And just saying Obamacare shows how one feels.

Would it be Bushcare?
Would it be Johnsoncare?
Would it be Nixoncare?
Would it be Clintoncare?

pathetic to label this presidents healthcare reform to make it "seem less"
cause it targets the man! And this is exactly what is intended. Many think less of the "man" and try to make the healthcare reform seem less important because of the "man" handling it.

 

[Blue Skys]

Sure it takes radical change, which could mean, stop spraying our food with poison, stop pumping us full of antibiotics through meat, stop using chemicals to over process food (which are all approved by the government), tell people macdonalds is bad for them. Those are drastic changes that need to be made, not a government take over of healthcare, which is what this change will lead to.

edited to fix some spelling and add a word or two that I left out.

 

[reinbeau]

+1, Blue Skys.

Karen, Obamacare is just a name for a plan. Would it be better if I said Obama's Plan? Doesn't matter what you call it, it isn't what this country needs. We need radical change to our health care system, starting with our food, and the way we do business. Until that base is fixed it doesn't make a bit of difference what we do with the rest of health care.