Obama will be speaking to all the school children of America this week

[FarmerChick]

am sorry I'm not as me-first a fan of dog-eat-dog processes as some other folks are, but, you know.



Pat you have every right to give what is yours away. You have the right to "pay extra taxes" out of the goodness of your heart. pay more, the govts. would love that.

Do not give what belongs to others away because of your feelings and attitudes.

Others have, some don't. You can not spend or over-tax to a higher inproportionate level SOME citizens. It is unconstitutional.

 

[patandchickens]

I'll try one last time on this, in the optimistic hope that perhaps I have just not been clear:

If Joe is taxed X percent on his income level
Sue is taxed X percent on her income level
Fred is taxed X percent on his income level

(all the while these tax percentages are not that far from each other)...reasonable increase in taxes per income level

then Bill---the super rich...he gets taxed TRIPLE off the charts and all from the others being taxed. WAY more than the fair tax being established on the other levels.

Current US tax structure, as I understand it (i.e I looked it up but did not verify with original sources) is something like the following for a single person:

if you make you pay this percent income tax

under $25k 15%
$25k-$61k 28%
$62k-$128k 31%
$128k-$278k 36%
over $278k 39.5%

(these are presumably net taxable income #s; edited to correct: those are *marginal* tax rates not total, meaning that a person whose net income was, say, $200k is actually paying LESS THAN 36% total)

So, FC, is this "reasonable" in your eyes?

If not, what numbers would be?

If it *is* reasonable, what if we increased the tax rate of the top two brackets by 2%, would that still be reasonable? What if we raised them by 4%? What if we just raised the topmost bracket by 4%?

And WHY is that where 'reasonable' ends?

And also isn't OTHER PEOPLES' opinion of what's reasonable just as important as what YOURS is?

Cuz, nowhere (really truly, nowhere and never!) has anybody on this forum said "hey, it would be a good idea to tax the rich *unreasonably* i.e. to a degree that I, the writer of this post, feel is unreasonable".


Pat

 

[MorelCabin]

First of all, let me say this. Those who are making over $100K a year are working thier butts off for it. They aren't working 9-5 days, believe you me! They are working long hard 15 hour days! Why in the world would they willing pay taxes so that they can support blow shmo on welfare sitting on his butt drinking away his welfare check and beating on the unfortunate wife and kids who are either too afraid to leave, or simply too stupid.
Support the guys wife and kids, maybe, but most likely that not she's just going to move another drinking drug addicted chap into her government assisted household with her because that is where she is at....but that isn't up to the government to decide. I see wayyyy too much foolishness out there to assume my tax dollars are going to those who need it.
The people I see who are really poor and really deserving aren't standing in line at the welfare office month after month. They are working, struggling to pay bills, and are essentially happy not having everything the rich folks have because to them being rich is stupidity anyway...why work 15 hour days for a few toys? A roof is a roof to some folks, and those folks live within thier means, like we all should. They are the smart ones, and they don't think anybody owes them anything...AND they are HAPPY!
Taking from the rich doesn't solve anything.
Another thing is, in America there is no excuse for anyone to be hungry...there are food banks and shelters, soup kitchens and many resources already available to help them with the tax dollars we are already paying

 

[me&thegals]

Oh geeze--I knew I couldn't stay out of it. This lack of rationality is driving me nuts!

1. Why are people who earn more than $100,000/year hard working, 15+ hour days? Maybe some are, maybe some aren't. Level of income does not necessarily equate hard work. My husband and I work our butts off and are solidly lower-middle class. Not complaining, but that's the way it is. Some people I know who are wealthy have very 9-5 jobs. Some work quite a bit more. Why is there this logic that ALL wealth is earned and all poverty is earned?

2. How much time do you all really spend hanging out in welfare lines? If you do, then I guess I am trying to figure out why you are arguing against welfare. Honestly, do you really know who is in the welfare lines? Do you really know the guys in it drink hard, beat their "stupid" wife and kids? Wow.

3. Shelters, food pantries and soup kitchens are not tax supported. At least I'm pretty sure. In my community, they are completely supported by the community. That would be folks in the community who don't believe their fellow citizens are ne'er do wells, wife beaters, child abusers and heavy drinkers because they need help eating right now.

4. In America, there are lots of reasons to be hungry. The last time I was at a food pantry, one gentleman (with no teeth) had to bike miles to get there. In August, this is doable. I hope he makes it fine during the winter. If you think that all the support systems we have in America are ACCESSIBLE to all those who need them, I don't even know what else to say. They aren't.

 

[FarmerChick]

The problem with taxing only the rich

Some of the big ideas kicking around Washington these days may have merit and may be worth pursuing.

But they're not going to be enough if the goals are to enact new initiatives like health reform without adding to the deficit, and without taxing any family making less than $250,000, experts say.

"There's an argument for making the tax system more progressive," said Len Burman, director of the Tax Policy Center. "[But] people are going to have to pay tax or come to terms with smaller government. Right now there's enormous pressure for the government to do more and more."

And by not letting the Bush tax cuts expire for families making less than $250,000, the administration is forfeiting an estimated $2.1 trillion in revenue over 10 years.---horray, we the poorer people than the rich will be paying less to the govt. yippee. we get to keep our tax cuts and not contribute--hey how many of ya'll got back big fat refunds? that money that was "maybe targeted" for the poors programs??

Meanwhile, the federal debt held by the public is scheduled to rise from 41% of gross domestic product to 82% by 2019 under the president's proposed budget, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

That already assumes the majority of Bush tax cuts expire for upper-income taxpayers.wa hoo---the rich do not get to keep their tax cuts...they will have to pay more!!! they can cover what we middle class and poorer types do not have to pay

At the same time, tax burdens across all income groups have been fairly low historically speaking.

Although they pay the lion's share of income tax dollars collected, high-income taxpayers benefited disproportionately from the Bush tax cuts.

But those same tax cuts also increased the ranks of those who end up owing no income tax - the majority of whom are not high income. The Tax Policy Center now estimates that after taking the tax breaks for which they're eligible, 47% of tax-filing households will have no federal income tax liability this year.what? you mean we poorer people got tax cuts and we have our deductions and such we PAY NO federal tax, wow --about 47% of the filing households. So what did we truly contribute?

Many tax policy experts believe fundamental reform of the tax code -- a reform that simplifies the code and broadens the base of payers -- could be one step toward resolving long-term shortfalls.

Evasion is another concern experts raise when rates are hiked too high or too frequently. If high income taxpayers feel their tax burden too burdensome, they are more likely to seek out legitimate tax shelters. But also the higher rates go, Kies said, "the more it creates an atmosphere for cheating."

___________________

either increase taxes for everyone OR revise the entire tax code.

It is so much more involved then "lets ad 2% or 4% to the top bracket."

Doesn't anyone see it?

Doesn't anyone see the true nature of the beast?

Increasing taxes on the personal income of the rich will not fix a damn thing. Truly....say we pick $500 k to be the increase level. Tax everyone over 500k at 42%......it doesn't mean squat.

Either revise the entire tax code or keep your hands out of others peoples pockets. Those making $277 deserve 39% but if you make $278 then you deserve to pay another 4% on top. NO IT DOESN'T WORK....IT DOESN'T FIX THE PROBLEMS!

The problems....doesn't anyone see the problems.

Money will not fix these problems. Unfairly increasing taxes on the rich (whatever rich may be) will not fix the nations problems. It won't even come close.

So lets just keep taxing people with higher income!! Yea that is the fix. Just keep the money rolling in from the rich.

ONLY 2% this year for X dollars.......and in 3 years when there is NO MORE money to fund the govt.....well lets just hit those rich again....maybe another 2 %----hey they can handle it.

I don't know what to say to ya'll who think pulling some persons hard earned cash out their pockets will fix a nation???? A small majority of people. The rich are not as numerous as we think! Oh if you make $20 million this year in personal income...oh heck, we need that. Lets just take 70-80% of that guys money? he doesn't need that much to live, he has to fund a nation.

and then throw all this new found money into agencies that are not working correctly!!

does anyone see what I see---a nation going down the toilet that money won't fix???? that alientating the rich and robbing them of their personal incomes will not do anything but "maybe make ya'll feel better that someone with more is ponying up more cash"---cause they got it and deserve that to happen to them. Hey I am middle class or poorer, I can't fix this nation's problems, so lets just rob the rich and maybe their money can fix this nation!!!!

it can't. it is wrong and we need changes.

high taxes on one group of people will not do anything. if anything, look at the unfair levels of true taxes. not just the dollars. look at the tax cuts we poorer people get that rich don't....look at the deductions etc. that apply to the rich that we don't get.......look at the NUMBER of people not working and contributing at all to this nation.......look at what the govt. is handing out.....etc. etc. etc.

I can only say etc. etc. is because the problem is so invovled that just increasing taxes on the rich does not solve one problem at all. all it does is segregate and discriminate a group of people. NO---one group of people should not be asked to contribute more to a nation that is not responsibile with our tax money.

Revise the entire system...or take a hike!

Be active in your country, take a stand, fix the problems...truly fix the problems....and then sit back and see what needs to be done.

A lynch party on rich people is not the answer.



revise the entire code. Make it work for this nation.

Or stop trying to raise the top bracket levels to "find money" that will not help a dying nation.

The rich need help also from the government. The rich depend on a working stable country also. The govt. is monetairly running this country into the ground. ALL WILL SUFFER! More than others, but many will suffer...by losing what who we are and what this nation has become. (I mean the good points here folks..LOL)


If the majority of the citizens throw "some rich" under the bus....what happens when this runs out, and then the govt. comes for you!! The small guy. You can pretend to sacrifice in the name of the good, but when the citizens rally against their own, they destroy their country and forfeit their given rights. But it is only a few we think can be sacrificed, so lets do it--it is OK if it is not me.

Oh but wait, are we throwing the wrong people under the bus? Maybe it truly "isn't people' maybe it is the govt. that needs to justify their spending to us. maybe it is the govt. who should be responsible for fixing the nation. maybe it is the govt who should be finding ways to save money and not keep asking us to throw our own citizens under the bus. Nah, too much work to ask that from the govt. They won't do it. let's just sit back and eat our own citizens up little by little to appease the masses. Yea, one day, if not tomorrow, the ones who need to be thrown under the bus will be you and me. It will come knocking on your front door. Don't be surprised when you answer it and you are the target to fall under the bus!

I kid you not all.....the money game doesn't cut it anymore!

 

[FarmerChick]

good post Morel

it truly is not just a "protect mode" of our money. Many work hard, damn hard to have something. Something a little better and aspire to conquer dreams and prosper. We want that for our families. But no one has the right to say---we should all have the same. That is not a free country. A free country is where you are taxed fair...and pray and pray the govt. spends your money wisely. I don't think the U.S. govt. has spent hardly any money wisely!

It is to find, seek, fix, the sucking dry of this nation. And I do not only mean the poor programs. I mean every bit of spending!

We are out of control in the U.S.
We must find balance? How, heck I am not sure, but one thing I do know....citizens eating up citizens is not the way. The govt. must be held accountable. People are saying tax the rich more and more, well that is just fighting the easier target, that's all.

 

[reinbeau]

Think about it before you tell the government it's ok to dip into a 'rich person's' pocket because somehow they don't deserve all that money. There are people out there who don't think you deserve all that food you've got stockpiled.......

You know what?

You're quite mistaken, in what you're implying I'd think about that.

I actually DO think that, if I had stockpiled (say) two years' worth of food and some catastrophe happened such that most other people around here had only two weeks' worth of food... then it would be RIGHT for me to be required to share.

Yes, even share with those who could perfectly well have stockpiled food themselves but didnt'.

I would not be thrilled to have it happen -- obviously, since it is darn hard for a person to put aside their personal interest to look at the larger picture, and some amount of 'looking out for number one' tends to remain -- but I would wince and SUPPORT IT. I would feel it was the right thing to do and that if I wasn't going to do it voluntarily (and I can't swear that I would), it was legitimately the gov't's business to ensure I did it.

I am sorry I'm not as me-first a fan of dog-eat-dog processes as some other folks are, but, you know.

I would point out that people with this attitude often do pretty well in surviving times of difficulty, on account of they can cooperate with others and work together a lot more easily than if they're concerned mainly with keeping as much as possible for themselves out of fear that only by having as much stuff as possible will they be able to survive.

So it is not necessarily as dysfunctional as you seem to expect... although my reason for believing this way is not mainly pragmatism, it's that I think there are some ethical principles that are pretty darn important per se.

You don't have to agree with me of course! But I want you to know that your view of what's best for a person and their society is not necessarily the only view that can be strongly held.

Pat

Karen is right, Pat, you are missing the point. But the point isn't sticking in your face - or your gut. You aren't faced with someone taking the food you've stockpiled. We can all sit here and pontificate, and judge each other, safe and comfy in our little homes with our internet connection and the knowledge (well, for now) that we're safe, so we can make magnanimous statements about taxing the rich and feeding the poor and how we should all care for one another, etc. But if/when TSHTF trust me, you wouldn't/won't feel so magnanimous towards those who want to take what was yours because you had too much.

And as for:

Oh, I can feel all those fingers firing up to tell me that isn't what you said, or that wasn't what you meant, and the argument shading that will result. It is what was said, and it is what you meant

(my boldfacing)

Scusi?

The generic you is astounded to know that you now have the power to READ OUR MINDS.

Could we keep this discussion a little bit more reality based please, like responding to what people actually WRITE, and if you want to impute different motives to them, at least acknowledge that you are *guessing*.


Pat

There are quite a few Svengalis here on this thread, it isn't an exclusive club.

 

[patandchickens]

OK, this thread is getting too weird for me, I'm taking a break. (Plus my son is home from his first-ever day of school and wants to make cookies, but, even aside from that).

Oh pity the poor millionaire-multimillionaire-billionaire?? And pity anyone who cannot afford to live the millionaire lifestyle that has become media-standard expectation for most fundamentally middle-class people??

Right. Sorry, not buying.

Also some odd notions of mathematics.

the point isn't sticking in your face - or your gut. You aren't faced with someone taking the food you've stockpiled. <snip> if/when TSHTF trust me, you wouldn't/won't feel so magnanimous towards those who want to take what was yours because you had too much.

The S has not yet come *close* to hitting the F, so I do not see that it has a lot to do with our current circumstances (people having to live in smaller or rented houses, or not affording cell phone service, is not exactly catastrophic social collapse).

But, if that ever DID happen, I obviously cannot promise I *would* do the right thing -- I said that in my original post, you will notice -- but that doesn't change the fact that, in my opinion, I *should*, and would try to the best of my ability and character.

Sorry, I just don't believe it's all about me.

Pretend away as much as you want about what I believe, but you're wrong. And I have had enough occasional experiences in life where I did manage to give away things/money that I really felt like I pretty much needed, to someone who obviously needed them far more than I did, that I think there is just a chance that you may be wrong in making such a disparaging judgement of my character.

BTW, those who feel that the problems of the needy should be solved primarily by voluntary giving -- you are aware that this was part of Karl Marx's original concept, and that it *spectacularly* does not work, neither on the tiny commune scale nor on the great big nation scale? I'm not saying all your ideas are Marxist but the idea that there's enough actual operative rubber-meets-the-road charity out there to fill the necessary requirements is not very reality oriented. So if not that, then what?

Pat, off to bake cookies and feeling *fortunate* to have chocolate chips et al to bake with, not feeling unfairly robbed b/c we don't have a higher proportion of our income to buy even more of 'em with

 

[MorelCabin]

not sure whether I should say this...

 

[FarmerChick]

you are taking it personal.

No one is judging your ability to help others. I would help others if I could in true times of despair. Most of us would!!!!

it is government. it is the operation of your government is are talking about....you will sacrifice SOME citizens to help others. What you ask is wrong.

Hurting one group of people and taking and changing their rights to fair taxation to help another is the point.

Rich help organizations more than anyone on this board with big money donations. I know they do, you know they do.

it is not whether someone will help feed another. heck we all give our produce to food banks, I give eggs to people who need it, I volunteer my time to help others. Pat we all do this.

Don't you see that you are hurting one group of people to help another.
You are forcing thru taxation unfair practices on that group.

It is so much of a constitutional agenda that your decision effects more than just getting more money from wealth into a dying systems to try to fix problems.

The true poor are helped all the time.

Like someone said, a poor guy rides a bike to the food bank. He is taking care of himself best he can...but what about winter? The statement was--I hope he makes it??? Well, geez, if it is so important to a person that this poorer person needs help and all the sympathy is there, then offer the man a ride once a week. Or go to the food bank, see who needs delivery of their food. So easy to help....yet not offered. Just the "oh I feel so sorry for the person....someone must pay more cash to make sure he "what--gets a car??"

Every small community must help itself. The better off in the community must help their less fortunate. If that was done, then the big money pit of agencies wasting money and doling out fraudulent checks might cut back dramatically. Of course we all wish that----

BUT the big picture. You all fly right by it!

Is the government handling responsibility everyone's money?
I don't think so.

If there is not enough, then WHY?

WAY too much on defense? Overseas wars and conflicts being overspent to the dissastifaction of the citizens? How about a budget cut there to bring some cash back. Heck most US citizens want our country out of other countries. Does govt. listen????

We send untold billions of money in aid to other countries? Is it helping? Why is our country to help another country when we can not help our own????

Govt agencies being attacked by fraud? Where is the commissions to weed out the undesireables sucking off the system? Protect your poor programs and more for those who need it.

Too much money being wasted on frivilous programs? There are some doozies out there pulling your and mine hard earned tax money. Maybe a true audit of what deserves our cash, like maybe a little less money to the study of how a Panda eats and more money for humans in the nation, that type of thing?

Govt. waste is to blame.
You say rich are to blame for not sharing.
I say the govt. is spending incorrectly and I am not willing to throw my fellow citizens (rich or poor) under the bus to correct a problem that is not truly ours. Yes we face this problem, we allowed it to continue, we must stop it now. This government problem can not be corrected without true radical change and trying to keep our rights intact while doing so.

And our country is not the only one having these problems.

As elderly and true poor and more suck off the system....as the internal infrastructure of this nation collapes and the rich run out of money to make everyone's life better..hmm...who do we sacrifice to allow our nation to survive?

No one. There will be no one left Pat to pay the bills. So we all suffer cause the citizens will not do their duty and stand up to the govt. that is sucking away our rights to happiness and a fair life to live.

Fix the nations problems. Hard to do! But it must be done!

Stop looking for a quick fix like taking money from the wealthy. It will not solve anything. It only will give short term cash into the system.

How about that 47% of filing families that are not high income that pay no tax? Hmm....we forget about that so quickly.

How big was your refund last year?
Or did you pay?

If you got a refund, maybe donating it to the govt. to help fray costs is the way to go.....or donating it all to a local organization to help others.

Or if you paid, then be sure that money will be well spent by your govt. to ensure the citizens of your nation are well cared for the best they can do.