Obama will be speaking to all the school children of America this week

[Nifty]

A quick note: I'm letting this thread continue on the expectation that feelings aren't getting hurt and people aren't taking things personally. If that isn't the case you can click the report button or send me a message.

Over all, the net benefits to allowing a discussion must outweigh the net disadvantages / cons of allowing it to continue.

If more people come away from this discussion worse than when they went in, then that's a problem.

Otherwise, as you were.

 

[DrakeMaiden]

The problem I see with that, FarmerChick, is that most Americans are just too lazy to take those jobs.

We live in a messed up world. And, yeah, the problems seem to just snowball and there aren't any easy answers, because everything has become so convoluted.

 

[patandchickens]

Ban all illegals. Get them OFF the US free programs!!! Give those jobs to Americans. Let americans then fight for the rights for a good wage while being a laborer in the fields....and then the illegals would not suck off the govt. system...more money in the til for US citizens....then our "having to pay for all the illegals" that suck off the system, are then gone, and our money is active for our citizens....then our insurance and hosptial costs go down, our education costs go down, our welfare costs go down, our food stamp costs go down, (while our fodo cost might go up a bit to cover the good wages for laborer, we save elsewhere!!) our americans have jobs, and they can then afford food cause money is saved in other places.

FC, I completely agree with you in principle. (And btw thank you for clarifying that much of the previous debate was *not* necessarily about Obama-fear in particular, I had not actually caught that but it does make somewhat more sense as a general debate, now )

The thing is, how do you get there from here?

Americans are not going to take migrant-worker type jobs and all the other severely-underpaid positions that illegal immigrants tend to fill (restaurant workers, maids, construction in some regions, etc etc) UNLESS the wages are a lot higher and the conditions better. So it doesn't work to say "Americans can take those jobs and THEN fight for the right to good wages etc etc". The second part sort of has to come first, doesn't it?

At least, I suppose I could vaguely imagine an iron-fisted national program to completely ban illegals from working in, say, the hotel or restaurant industry, with the result that hotels and restaurants have to greatly increase their prices (industry-wide) to cover the cost of hiring Americans (supposing that enough Americans could be found to take those jobs even at higher wages -- which frankly I dunno). It would be a huge financial upheaval for many large, large sectors of the economy, but maybe it could be lived through.

I am afraid I cannot envision it working in agriculture, though. I don't think it would be acceptable, or really survivable for the nation as we know it, to have a massive interruption of food production. Remembering that crops and livestock are not as easily turned on and off as, say, takeout-dinner production.

It's a tough situation. If you're going to rail at politicians for not changing it, though, you would want to first have a clear and workable plan for HOW those changes could be made possible.

Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

The problem I see with that, FarmerChick, is that most Americans are just too lazy to take those jobs.

We live in a messed up world. And, yeah, the problems seem to just snowball and there aren't any easy answers, because everything has become so convoluted.

It isn't lazy to me...it is the pay and job hazards etc.

If that job paid well, had benefits, was a "real job" as we see employer companies to be...then it would be different.

Many a person, you and me and all us SS types, and there are millions out there would take that job if available and was a "real' job.

It can't be a real job unless it is given the chance to be one. Demand for better wages for americans, and stopping the illegals from those jobs, and taking FREE benefits that are to be given to citizens only......

well, you know, the whole round about comes back in line of THAT field of working being a job you surely could count on as a livable US wage.


and yes, times are sure messed up big time!!!

I hear you there!

 

[FarmerChick]

oh I agree Pat

it is an ideal type of situation....one I do not see happening any time soon or even truly know how to go about it.

in typing the logic sounds easy....but it would be a monumental task at the least!! and the huge scope of the "change" would be interrupting to life in the US as we know it.

I truly don't know how to make it workable. BUT I do know that millions of jobs are not being given to Americans (or they aren't even given the chance to get those jobs)

Where to start? I don't know......I know something has to be done.....but the scope of it is overwhelming to say the least!

A baby step? Of maybe demanding that illegals PAY taxes. Didn't the govt. talk about a big old amnesty situation? To just legalize the illegals since they are established here already.....I mean if they are here, why not make them pay taxes right????? at least the become tax paying citizens and pay their fair shair??

 

[DrakeMaiden]

I think most Americans would prefer a desk job over a job in the field. Now, that doesn't mean ALL, because like you said, FarmerChick, yes some of us prefer to work outdoors in any type of weather, etc.

I have actually considered working on a local farm, but I know that at the end of the day I would be too tired to work on my own land. :/

But I could be wrong . . . maybe there are lots of people who are weary and bored of the cubicle workstyle? People who just need a gentle shove, in the form of better pay/benefits.

 

[FarmerChick]

problem is we won't know any of it if the jobs truly are not available.

again the old big catch 22 situation



and yes, it is for young men mainly that hard work...HA HA HA
me being close to 50 and a gal, woof!! I am not taking that job..HA HA


Maybe new farming techniques.

I saw a show on the hydroponics stations. My gosh they produced, in an enclosed greenhouse with a water based system.....MILLIONS OF TONS of food.

So that would not be hard field work? (Obviously all crops could never be put into this situation, but many, many can)

See throwing out thoughts--who knows??LOL



You know --thinking to be 20 years old again---the new technolgies and new fields we could be if we had the time and energy and gumption to start fresh into new business. Us older SS people would be the bomb!!!!

 

[Quail_Antwerp]

Ok I'm not sure I am totally understanding what ya'll are talking about now, but I do want to comment about the job thing?

I can't understand people not wanting those jobs because the pay either isn't that great or they don't have benefits. In the economy we have today people should be taking any job they can get, not being picky! Take that job, work it, hate it, and collect a pay check in two weeks. While you are doing that, keep looking for something better!

I will never never never understand why some people refuse to work a job that doesn't pay well or doesn't have benefits but will sit unemployed and not getting any kind of paycheck while they hold out for the better job.

A job = paycheck....any paycheck is better than NO paycheck!

Yes, look and strive for the better jobs with big pay and benefits, but in the meantime, work the crap job and collect the crap paycheck!!

 

[DrakeMaiden]

Well, if the pay doesn't equate with the energy you must put into the job (therefore the amount of food you must eat to keep working), then it makes a lot of sense NOT to work the job. There is probably some sort of equation to that effect in economics.

 

[reinbeau]

I drive all over northern New England (mainly Maine) and I see plenty of white Americans picking farm crops. There are migratory workers up there, and they are all different colors, Caucasians are not unusual, at all. I've also heard many of the migrant workers have gone back to Mexico or Brazil because work has dried up for them - because the jobs are being snapped up by those who need work. It isn't true that Americans won't do that work, they will, when they have to, to put food on their own tables.

When I was doing my gardening business I was too tired to keep up my own place, but working outdoors beats a desk job any time.