opinions?

[framing fowl]

Here are my .02 worth of thoughts. Give them responsibility and decision making power. When we were kids, our parents gave us each a sheep. We were responsible for the decisions relating to that animal. When they lambed, we tagged and banded our own lambs and then decided whether to sell them or keep them to expand our "flock". That money then went into our college funds. If for some reason a lamb died or sis's ewe had triplets and mine only had twins. So be it. That is life. We were proud of the fact that we were entrusted with the care of those animals and that we were trusted to make our own decisions. Our parents praised our successes but also wisely allowed us to fail and make mistakes. We learned from the consequences!

 

[kcsunshine]

First of all I will say I'm sorry - been there, done that. Married 3 times and they are all children (apologies now to the men who read these posts - but you know how you are.)

I once had to take a course through work on "How to Deal with Difficult People". The only real thing I remember is:
1. You'll never change them - stop trying
2. You have to change how you react to his actions. Don't let him push your buttons - you and the kids need to take care of yourselves just like he's not around (I don't mean ignore him, just don't plan on ever getting any help from him.)

If you decide to make some kind of move, you'll know when the time is right. Don't let your anger motivate you. Good luck.

 

[Icu4dzs]

After reading all these posts I am completely astounded. Patandchickens has a real series of issues and while the rest of the folks who posted (except SKR8PN) are women, I feel it is at least fair to look at the side none of you can see from, and that is from the man's point of view. I will begin by saying that men and women are absolutely "Hardwired" differently. (read Women are from Venus, Men are from Mars" if you get the chance).
After having said that I guess it might be fair to look at a few of the perspectives described herein.
Let's face it. Society has changed...radically. At some time in the past, there was a society where Donna Reed and Robert Young and Beaver Cleaver's parents ruled the north american continent (sort of). Women were raised to be home-makers...men went out into the business world and made a living. Men worked in suits and ties, women wore dresses, stockings and makeup. Now, anyone's guess as to what happens. Teenage girls dress like the StPauli girl on the beer label in general society and little is left to the imagination. Pregnancy occurs in teenage years with regularity now.
At one time, marriage was a sacrement in the eyes of "the church" and folks behaved in a way that you would describe as "obedient" to the rules of "the church". FOlks got married one time (for the most part) and stayed married (remember they took vows that stated "until death us do part" which can be an un-mercifully long time for some marriages, I admit.)
Society operated in a system of dignity and obedience to rules and "the law". Women were raised to believe that marriage to a good man involved security and comfort of life in return for birthing, raising children and managing a household. High school girls took Home Economics and were trained in the art of "Domestic Engineering". Highschool boys took shop...learned handiwork skills so they can maintain and repair a home.
Men were taught to make a living and for some strange reason, the role models (on the MSM) all came home from their "grueling and stressful" day at the office and sat in "their chair"and watched TV. Rarely did a role model on TV show dad go out into the yard and start the tractor and mow hay or bale it or milk the cows or begin welding the part of the rail back together that got hit by the tractor.
Admittedly, the only real role model most men had were their fathers. I never saw Robert Young pick up a wrench or shovel ever. Now don't think I am defending this because I am not. I come home from the hospital and get back on the tractor and go right back to where I left off, but then I am old and know what is coming...I think I do anyway.
Today, with some rare exceptions, this has all gone "POOF" None of it is true any longer. Before 1950's American youth looked forward to accepting the mantle of adulthood with excitement. Today they are involuted by the electronic narcotics of computers, Nintendo, TV, etc. along with the mind altering substances such as nicotine, alcohol, caffene, canabis, etc. Life has become one long adolescent party that started in college (assuming you went to college) and for some reason never ended. Now they get married because they want their parents blessing for sleeping with their lover and they never really learn anything about how to function as an adult. Relationships have become "throw-away" items like an old Bic lighter. No one wants to take responsibility for decision making because they are afraid of confrontation.
Women on the other hand got stuck with responsibility because there were consequences for their actions back then. Now there are fewer consequences despite the fact that the original ones continue to occur, but the OCP has conquered much of them.
Now both sides are not forced to accept the consequences of their actions and so they never learn to take responsibility for what it is that they do...hence the frequent changes in marital partners with or without the benefit of the priest.
So here we are with the problem of perpetual adolescence. How do we solve it? That is a great question. It is only going to be solved by everyone in society taking responsibility for their own actions and live up to their promises and obligations. I realize that the country now functions on the "Haldeman Theory of Crime" which states that "it's only a crime if you get caught". Where does that leave the folks who want their children to grow up as sensible, honest and responsible, contributing members of society? It leaves them in a tough situation.
I was told that one should never marry a person you meet in a bar...the corollary of which is "don't go to bars". That speaks for itself. There were 4 places to meet an eligible, good-risk marriage partner...home. church, school and work. Risk rises outside those locations. But men were never taught by their mothers to be good husbands and fathers. They were also not taught this by their fathers unless the father was just such a man. So where do they learn this? Good question. One that society has not answered just yet.
The best we can hope for in a society that no longer requires people to obey "law" or "rules is to teach them to respect all people and treat others as they would have others treat them. The rest should be left to setting the example as a parent, not their buddy. A parent is a leader. A leader is one who gets others to do what they want "willingly". That does not mean being their buddy and going drinking with them. It means setting the example of what you want them to become.
As for Patandchickens...I submit to you that your husband is depressed, hates his job and is sexually frustrated. I am now certain that I will be blasted for that statement, but I'd be willing to back it up with more proof simply based on what she said.
Men who look at other women are not neccessarily doing something bad, but to put things into perspective, I use this analogy. If a man is expected to eat dinner at home, and each time he comes home there is nothing to eat, eventually he will start going to McDonalds. You can make of that analogy what you will. If he lies, perhaps your expectations exceed his abilities or his perceived abilities and he is made to feel inferior because he can't live up the the expectations women have of folks such as Ward Cleaver.
Women hold men to very high expectations taught by their mothers (based on their role models, often their own fathers) and when the husband doesn't meet those expectations, the woman becomes angry and disillusioned. Then the man becomes disillusioned and the marriage generally deteriorates. If you really want to destroy a marriage in a heartbeat, go ahead and tell your husband he "isn't good enough" or doesn't earn enough and watch his reaction. You'll never see him smile again, ever.
Working together is one of the best ways to stay together. You have to grow together or you will grow apart. When children see their parents work together, treat each other with love, affection and respect, they learn to do that!
The subject of violence is adequately addressed above. No violence of any sort is acceptable, PERIOD. I don't care if that is what he saw at home, it isn't acceptable. How can you physically hurt someone you love? What's the chances that person will be "WARM" to you later that night if she is beaten up? My guess is "ZERO chance".
So, when I say your husband hates his job, is depressed and is sexually frustrated think about it from his perspective. If he is made to feel he is inadequate in any of these areas, your chances of resolving the situation are essentially zero.
Try making him feel that he is the man you love and wanted to live with and love for the rest of your life...(after all that is what you said at first) and see his reaction. Try finding ways to work with him not around or inspite of him. Try making him feel good about your relationship. Watch the difference in his behavior.
I got more but am tired since I have worked for 33 straight hours.
I anticipate strong reactions to this, but then there were some really harsh descriptions of husbands here.
I lived with a wife for 27 years of the 31 of our "marriage". Living alone has become OK with me now. I work harder now and am much happier than I ever was when I wasn't "good enough" back there. I know of what I speak.
YMMV
Trim

 

[DrakeMaiden]

As for Patandchickens...I submit to you that your husband is depressed, hates his job and is sexually frustrated. I am now certain that I will be blasted for that statement, but I'd be willing to back it up with more proof simply based on what she said.
Men who look at other women are not neccessarily doing something bad, but to put things into perspective, I use this analogy. If a man is expected to eat dinner at home, and each time he comes home there is nothing to eat, eventually he will start going to McDonalds. You can make of that analogy what you will.

Not necessarily true. To continue the analogy. . . if he grew up eating McDonalds food, he may prefer to eat McDonalds food. Why? It is emotionally and physically more convenient. His choice does not necessarily reflect on his spouse (or her cooking or lack thereof).

If he lies, perhaps your expectations exceed his abilities or his perceived abilities and he is made to feel inferior because he can't live up the the expectations women have of folks such as Ward Cleaver.

Some people are pathological liars. They lie to everyone, when it is convenient. Not just their spouses.

 

[miss_thenorth]

I am just at my wits end (as so often ) and because on average y'all are more sensible and realistic than the people I could talk to in real life, plus which I do not have to encounter you day in day out in real life LOL, so I would really appreciate it if anyone can offer any advice here.

Basically my question is, how do you raise children to be decent upstanding people who behave responsibly and honestly and all that, when their father is, er, a very tall four-year-old and not a well-raised one at that.

"TMI" and "excessive-length" warning, but you need background:

This morning I answered the phone and after asking for my husband, the caller said "I'm the woman your husband ran into on the highway, and I have an estimate for the repairs". 'Scuse me? Apparently he was not watching where he was going on the 401 on Tuesday, walloped some woman's bumper off (fortunately no injuries and she was agreeable to keeping insurance company out of it), agreed to pay repair costs (I have no problem with that, btw), and DID NOT SAY ONE WORD ABOUT IT.

This is far from the first time this sort of thing has happened -- he usually does not do or say enough to lie or hide-the-truth *about*, but enough things have happened over the years to make it crystal clear that he does not mean one word he says and that he does not consider anything where I am not personally present-and-active to be any of my business. For heaven's sake, this is someone who, when you accidentally walk into the room and he has rather odd swedish nudie pics on the computer and as a surprised reaction say "WHAT is THAT?", will close the window and baldfacedly turn to me and say "a site about Lord of the Rings". Sheesh.

And aside from having a job and thus bringing in a paycheck, he does virtually nothing around the place, except feed the cats and mow the lawn and on Wednesday morning take the trash to the curb when he leaves for work. He has repeatedly said that he thinks it is unrealistic and ridiculous to expect him to do anything else, since he is not home during the day b/c of work and besides I'm better at everything anyhow so the person who's better at <whatever task> should do it. (He lived with his parents continuously from birth to our marriage when he was 43, and never had to do anything for himself)

And my gosh, you CANNOT have a conversation with him, he has zero interest in participating in either social or goal-oriented conversation, and if conversation seems to me necessary (like, we need to replace the car, which one should we buy?) it pretty much requires interrogation format, with ten minute gaps between replies and replies that seldom answer the question and are lawyerly and noncommittal.

Whether I should have realized this when I married him and it serves me right (although he presumably does not find being married to ME a particular picnic EITHER, it is his own silly fault and he has not lifted a finger to improve his lot so my sympathy is very limited), or how stupid I may have been, is no longer really the point. The point is:

Here I am. We have kids. My career does not exist around here and it's been too long to go back anyhow, and I cannot see doing the single-mom thing unless FORCED to.

Besides, when he is in a good mood he does play well with the kids, and I mean after all he is their DAD, *they* dont' know or care what a useless juvenile selfish butthead he may be. And it could be worse, he does not drink or use drugs or serious violence. He may well be lying about other things for all I know, but, <shrug>.

Contrary to what you might think from the above (remember I am writing this in an IRRITATED mood, having just found out about this $600+ bill from the unmentioned accident), things are not especially hostile in the house. We are not lovey-dovey most of the time but we are polite and cheerful.

But it is times liek this when I just throw my hands up in the air and think, with HIM as their example of what it means to be a grownup man, how are our sons supposed to grow up learning to be truthful, forthcoming, hardworking, responsible, etc?????

I have asked this of my husband a few times, and his response is that 1) it's totally different when *he* lies, or hurts someone and won't apologize, than when the kids do it, because it would be *unpleasant* for him to tell the truth or apologize so OBVIOUSLY he can't/shouldn't do it; 2) all this work and decisionmaking (large and tiny) in daily life are not something a person can handle on top of a 40 hr a wk job and besides I do them so what's the problem; and 3) they have ME as a role model to learn about honesty and apologies and work and so forth, so what's even the problem.

* blink *

I do not think things are likely to change. We have sunk thousands of dollars into totally pointless, sometimes counterproductive 'marital counselling", I am not leaving unless he does something actually BAD, this is just the way the situation IS.

As for me, it serves me right I guess, I'll live. But as for the kids... how do you raise sons to be GOOD PEOPLE, this way?

Sigh, any and all advice appreciated (even if it's "get a life", although a more specific version I can *implement* would be more helpful <g>)

Pat

I was sort of raised like that. My dad did not know how to interact with my sis and I, and he was not really a presence in our lives. He worked his 40 + hours a week, came home, read the paper and vegged out in front of the tv after dinner. He brought the garbage out on Sunday nights, and mowed the lawn/shoveled the driveway (until sis and I were old enough, then we did it.) He took us camping every summer for two weeks, but I have no fond memories of "family" time. He, also did not drink, although he did smoke, no naked ladies, and we went to church on Sundays.

Then there was my mom. While she was great, she was not really involved in our lives either. While she did try to raise us with morals and values etc., she was more interested in her things. She also worked 40+ hours a week, plus had to run the house afterwards.

Flash forward to teenage years, my sis came out of them squeaky clean. Me, otoh, had to go through the whole rebellion thing with the drugs/drinking/smoking/boys/staying out till all hours of the night.

I had a rough coupla years, but then I got my act together, met my dh and the rest is history.

Now, if you are going to compare your situation to how I was raised, if I were a gambling gal, I would put all my money on your kids having a better chance of pulling through unscathed than in my situation, considering how well thought out, articulate and aware you are.
You are aware of what your boys need, know what is needed for them to to grow up to be well rounded.

While I understand how frustrating ( and tiring, and insert whatever word here) it might be to have to do it all yourself, I do believe, just from reading your posts, that you can not only do it, but you will do it exceedingly well.

Also, your kids are not stupid. They pick up on things, and will clue in to what a lazy, unmovitated couch potatoe he is,especially since seeing him will contradict pretty much everything that you will be teaching them.

And don't make excuses for him. As time goes on, in a round about way (not through bashing, of course,) you can tell them what is expected of them, even when they see dad not doing what is expected.


And the worst thing you can do is try to be a mother to your husband. It just causes way too much stress, cuz he is an adult, and as you probably already know, you can't change him.

So, now, it seems you have decided to stick it out for better or worse, but just remember that if it gets too bad, where you are not ever (or even hardly ever) happy--you are not doing your kids any favours.

And if you have done marital counselling to no gains, just remember that it is still beneficial for you to go on your own. Sounds like you are in a stressful situation.

 

[hoosier]

Everything else you wrote pales in comparison to the phrase "no serious violence". That one scares me. Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying.

 

[lupinfarm]

My dad was raised by a strict Welsh woman (My nan was widowed young and raised both my dad and my uncle by herself during a time where it was not at all common for a woman to a) own her own house (she did), b) be a single mother, and c) have a reasonably good paying job with benefits and pension which she did). My brother and I were "raised" by him with tough love, he hardly ever spoke to us and has a good appreciate of fine beer, and liquor. When we were naughty, we would get a swift wallop upside the head or on the backside. Yeah, I was spanked. I lived.

 

[Beekissed]

I think Free nailed it perfectly!

The only thing I will add is this....find your own happiness and teach your children the proper way to act and, if they happen to start mimicking dad's "bad" side, use it as a bad example and teach a lesson from it.

You are right...he won't ever change and will never grow up. It just won't happen. Don't even waste time or anger on it....just roll on and act like he is only there for the paycheck, for your sexual pleasure, for a warm back to snuggle up to at night and then expect little else. Be happy with the good things, ignore the rest and take over the responsibilities that you feel need your guidance.

You'll be much happier if you realize, as you have already done, that he is just what he is and you will always have to compensate for and work around his short-comings. So just do it and teach the children the same tactics.

If you can't leave 'em, use them for their only contributions~money, sex, taking out the garbage~ and act like the single parent you already are....with benefits!

 

[lupinfarm]

:/ Unfortunately my brother in recent years has adopted my dads attitude and believes that the work around the house is for the women. He's going to have a heart attack when I go to school

 

[Blackbird]

Men who look at other women are not neccessarily doing something bad, but to put things into perspective, I use this analogy. If a man is expected to eat dinner at home, and each time he comes home there is nothing to eat, eventually he will start going to McDonalds. You can make of that analogy what you will. If he lies, perhaps your expectations exceed his abilities or his perceived abilities and he is made to feel inferior because he can't live up the the expectations women have of folks such as Ward Cleaver.
Women hold men to very high expectations taught by their mothers (based on their role models, often their own fathers) and when the husband doesn't meet those expectations, the woman becomes angry and disillusioned. Then the man becomes disillusioned and the marriage generally deteriorates. If you really want to destroy a marriage in a heartbeat, go ahead and tell your husband he "isn't good enough" or doesn't earn enough and watch his reaction. You'll never see him smile again, ever.

Funny how it's always the woman's fault.

Usually, when a devoted levelheaded woman marries a man whom she *thinks* is devoted, upstanding, etc. she expects nothing more from him than she would expect from herself. If he is sexually frustrated, he needs to talk about it and compromise with his significant other, not steal away to his computer to watch porn. THAT is what is wrong about it.

I do not think that her expectations are too high at all. Aside from that, parenting is a 24/7 job, a parent shouldn't exactly put their parenting skills on the back burner or set them aside just because they had to work in town that day.

I guess I'm very biased regarding past experiences.

If it does get bad, whatever you do, do not stay 'for' the kids. This will not help the kids. They will have an overall better upbringing with one good parent than they would with a good parent, and adding a bad parent making the situation worse. Staying for the kids rarely makes the situation better. My mom made this mistake.

Any form of violence, rape, verbal abuse, sexual abuse, physical abuse, and other forms of danger, GET OUT. My mom, brother, and I have all gone through this.

You're kids need to realize that their father isn't the way a person should act and that he does have some issues, but they do not need to be that way at all.

A man isn't needed to make your kids into 'good men'. The qualities that make a person 'good' have no gender restrictions. Fortunately women can do almost anything a man can do in today's world, and vise-versa, so I don't buy into the whole gender-roles thing. If I've learned anything, it's that good help is hard enough to find as it is, no need to discriminate about what gender the person is.