opinions?

[Beekissed]

Well said, Merle!

It's simply moronic to assume a man isn't getting enough sex in his marriage because he views internet porn. Measuring by that yardstick, every frustrated woman who lives with an impotent man should be porning it up every day.

Could it be he has developed unrealistic expectations about women and sex BECAUSE he views porn?

 

[dragonlaurel]

There is a detail that may have been missed here. Some men are hardwired to automatically notice any attractive woman and only consider it cheating if they get physical with her.
Unless he actually says that he is sexually frustrated- let's not assume anything about that. There are so many companies that do spam or pop up ads along those lines. Clicking a link may have just been a dumb impulse.
Many men also think looking at porn Does Not Count . This usually goes with a don't ask - don't tell kind of attitude about it. Then they make up something - fast, when it gets noticed. The quick cover-ups can be ridiculous.
Some people never learn that the truth is important, or how to admit they made a mistake.
Your boys need to know that everybody screws up sometimes and that is forgivable- but just come clean about it and try to make it right.
Tell them that teaching them how to take care of themselves will make it easier for them to be independent men. Teaching them at least basic cooking, how to do their own laundry, shop, and normal cleaning keeps them from being lost and helpless when they get their own place.

fixed spelling

 

[lorihadams]

Merle, well said!

I think DL is right, you have to teach them how to behave responsibly and take care of themselves. Ultimately, they're gonna do what they're gonna do and it's up to them how they behave as adults. They're gonna screw up and act stupid sometimes but hopefully they'll learn from it.

Some of the best men in the world were raised by their mothers....

 

[Lady Henevere]

I'm so sorry you're going through this, Pat. It's a tough situation.

Your hubby sounds a little bit like my dad. He did next to nothing around the house, so my mom did everything -- even when she was working full time and going to school in the evenings (she would make meals ahead of time and we would warm them up on the nights she had classes). I realize as an adult that he must have been a nightmare partner, but from a kid's perspective, he was the greatest dad ever. He was extremely supportive emotionally, in a way my mom never was. For my brother and me (but not my sister), he was the "preferred" parent to go to for emotional support, sound advice, a good hug, etc. So even while he was being a crappy partner, he was being a good dad. And all three of us grew up to be good, hardworking people. (I even recently discovered that my mom had taught my brother how to cook, which his wife said she appreciated immensely, because he brought a lot of the family's favorite recipes into the marriage. She was instilling some good knowledge in him, even though my dad wouldn't be caught dead in the kitchen.) (ETA: I'm not trying to suggest that your family is like this or that you are not supportive, I'm just trying to say that even a crappy partner can be a good parent and end up with decent kids.)

As for the communication issues, in my experience, a man really hates an open ended question like, "What kind of car do you think we should get?" OTOH, a better question might be, "Do you think we should get the ___, because it seats _ and has a large cargo space, or should we get the __, which is a little smaller but gets much better mileage?" (Or even, "We need a new car. Do you want to discuss it, or should I just get one?") Asking him questions like you would a child -- closed, yes-or-no questions that don't allow him to get overwhelmed -- may get you a lot further.

Don't worry, the kids will be fine. I really hope it gets better for you soon.

 

[pioneergirl]

I'll throw in my thoughts, take them for what they're worth...

First, I am married to a man who was adopted and raised in a home where mom took care of everything.....dad farmed and wasn't really a 'kid' person, he also believed women should be home cooking and cleaning, and raising kids. That being said, when I married him, he thought he should have a fresh towel with every shower, dishes done promptly, his laundry done daily, folded and put away, blah blah blah.

Now here is me.....my father was the same as his dad, but throw in both physical and mental abuse. At the age of 6 I was ironing his pants, doing my own laundry, and by the time I was 10 I was being made to cook for the family. I was very introverted. I joined the military and was made a whole new woman.

Flash forward to now, I am a very independent woman. Yes, I'm married to the man described above, and believe me, there are days when I want to scream. After 10 years he's finally learned to re-use the towel, do his own dishes/laundry, and just last week his clothes actually made it into the hamper. I have jerked his chain more than once, and more than once told him to go back to mommy. I can run my own power tools as well as I run the sewing machine. I can cook as easily as I run the mower or much stalls. I also take into account that he is gone all week! HA! I know that part doesn't pertain to you, but I swear sometimes its a bonus to me. He still thinks he needs to babysit me, but again, I jerk his chain on that one. He was also viewing porn, and even having online affairs. Yes, women think differently, and I don't care what anyone says, looking leads to more.

All this rambling doesn't mean a thing to you, I know. It sounds like he won't change. Like everyone said, your kids watch and learn from you. My son, when he visits, learns from me. They'll see the difference, and if you do as one person said and give them something to be responsible for, they'll find joy in the work and the reward without his help. Sounds like you're a single mom already.

As for gender rolls, around here, there are none. I don't believe in them. As Blackbird and Bee both said, having a man around does not a happy home make. Some believe in the 1950s gender rolls, I do not. I have proven it to my FIL and BIL on numerous ocassions. I will not give my opinion of those who still believe that women belong in the home while the man works. That is for private conversation.

My point is this.....you do what you feel is right. You can and seems already have, run the house without him. If you don't want to divorce him, work around him like a piece of furniture. Let it go, and stop worrying about it. He'll either stay or go. Either way, it doesn't seem you'll be out much. Call me harsh, flame me, whatever, just calling it like I see it.

 

[Icu4dzs]

I marvel at the responses to the problem and the approach. It is interesting to note that there are some people who equate "sexual frustration" as "NOT enough sex" Obviously the understanding of how a man feels or thinks does NOT enter into their lexicon.

It's simply moronic to assume a man isn't getting enough sex in his marriage because he views internet porn. Measuring by that yardstick, every frustrated woman who lives with an impotent man should be porning it up every day.

I also find it interesting that no one made any attempt to consider the issue of depression, and hates his job...all of which are similar issues along with sexual frustration. But then this is not what most folks experience. Certainly, we have a member here who has a deep concern about her husband and the resultant effects on her children. We have gotten a huge flaming response by a few whose experiences have been, shall we say, less than ideal in life.
So, how come no one even attempts to look at both sides of the issue?
It is also interesting to notice the reaction of women who find out that a man has looked at porn. Why do men look at that? Perhaps there is an explanation that defies the obvious response from a woman. Is it because she is insecure about her own appearance or that her reaction to him looking at her is somehow negative? One response was at least objective.

If he is sexually frustrated, he needs to talk about it and compromise with his significant other, not steal away to his computer to watch porn. THAT is what is wrong about it.

How many women are actually prepared to discuss such a topic objectively though? If that was the case, the men would probably respond because the initial assumption is that the man loves THAT woman, not the one on the "computer" Of course there is the failure of intimacy between couples that really isn't necessarily about sex. Unfortunately, in this series of responses, not one of them manages to entertain the concept of intimacy as something other than sex. OK, so when was the last time both partners actually sat down and talked about stuff that "REALLY MATTERS" in their lives. What they really want or need from the other person? I guess in any resolution of conflict "you catch more flies with honey, rather than vinegar" is a good analogy.

Funny how it's always the woman's fault.

Many of the responses allude to "fault. Why do we assume that "fault" is a functional approach to dealing with a problem of conflict? In any unsatisfactory interaction between people, both must acknowledge their contribution to the conflict. I do not suggest that a man has no "fault" but I also do not assume that the woman makes no contribution of fault. From the sound of many responses, many have had multiple failed relationships. Is there possibly a pattern here?

It is also interesting to examine the "courting ritual" of the American Society as it is now. How many folks really give a good look at the other person in terms of their skills in a relationship and in life in general for that matter? My guess is that now a day, folks use their endocrine system to make their marital partner decision without giving any examination to the issues that make a relationship viable.

And my gosh, you CANNOT have a conversation with him, he has zero interest in participating in either social or goal-oriented conversation

Whether I should have realized this when I married him and it serves me right

How many women actually see a guy do something outside the "date"? I'll bet not many actually watched him cook or ate a meal he prepared. Most folks put more effort into selecting an automobile than they put into selecting a mate. How many men actually get to know what a woman thinks or has skills to maintain a relationship before they marry? How many women critically look at the man's skills for relationship before they marry? One good look at the other's ability to resolve conflict before marriage would probably stop a lot of folks before they get all the way to the altar.

If you want to know what a person is like, why not look at their parents? What kind of relationship do they have? How do they interact? How do they resolve conflict...even minor ones?

The reason I say that is because this is the role model the prospective spouse has had for their entire lives (in most cases) and that is what they know best. Many responses tell of what kind of person their father was. Who taught their father to be a MAN? Who taught their mother to be a woman? Look inward before assessing blame.

Interestingly as I said above, no one bothers to look at depression as a source of the issues. How has a marriage partner changed since the marriage? Do they have the same hobbies and joys they shared before the marriage? Do they seem like they get enough sleep? Do they feel guilty about things? There are a list of items which indicate the presence of depression and knowing what they are can help understand changes in behaviour. Certainly, if you want to marry someone, you want to experience their joy...what happens when that begins to erode? Do you still want to be around them?

Women are hardwired to require security, and men appear to be hardwired to require freedom. These can be wide interpretations but they do work. Women want a man to provide for them and give them a secure environment. Be honest and look at that concept.

Some women don't want a man for security, they just want him for "whatever they need at the time" and that can be money, love, sex (yes, they are different), support or just plain biologic advantage. I know of one woman who left a guy she really loved, to marry and have children with a guy she didn't love but who had "good genes" and a good family background. Now she wants to live with the man she loved all that time (who married someone else) and doesn't understand why he won't just leave his wife and "marry her". But she is angry with the fact that now that she is divorced, she has no security and can't expect it from the man who she wants to live with and is still married. Kind of a weird approach isn't it?

So, as you can see, the issues are many and complex. Where will they all be resolved? Who knows, but the best attempt is to be honest. If you always tell the truth, you only have to remember one story (Mark Twain)

 

[miss_thenorth]

I marvel at the responses to the problem and the approach. It is interesting to note that there are some people who equate "sexual frustration" as "NOT enough sex" Obviously the understanding of how a man feels or thinks does NOT enter into their lexicon.

It's simply moronic to assume a man isn't getting enough sex in his marriage because he views internet porn. Measuring by that yardstick, every frustrated woman who lives with an impotent man should be porning it up every day.

I also find it interesting that no one made any attempt to consider the issue of depression, and hates his job...all of which are similar issues along with sexual frustration. But then this is not what most folks experience. Certainly, we have a member here who has a deep concern about her husband and the resultant effects on her children. We have gotten a huge flaming response by a few whose experiences have been, shall we say, less than ideal in life.
So, how come no one even attempts to look at both sides of the issue?
It is also interesting to notice the reaction of women who find out that a man has looked at porn. Why do men look at that? Perhaps there is an explanation that defies the obvious response from a woman. Is it because she is insecure about her own appearance or that her reaction to him looking at her is somehow negative? One response was at least objective.

If he is sexually frustrated, he needs to talk about it and compromise with his significant other, not steal away to his computer to watch porn. THAT is what is wrong about it.

How many women are actually prepared to discuss such a topic objectively though? If that was the case, the men would probably respond because the initial assumption is that the man loves THAT woman, not the one on the "computer" Of course there is the failure of intimacy between couples that really isn't necessarily about sex. Unfortunately, in this series of responses, not one of them manages to entertain the concept of intimacy as something other than sex. OK, so when was the last time both partners actually sat down and talked about stuff that "REALLY MATTERS" in their lives. What they really want or need from the other person? I guess in any resolution of conflict "you catch more flies with honey, rather than vinegar" is a good analogy.

Funny how it's always the woman's fault.

Many of the responses allude to "fault. Why do we assume that "fault" is a functional approach to dealing with a problem of conflict? In any unsatisfactory interaction between people, both must acknowledge their contribution to the conflict. I do not suggest that a man has no "fault" but I also do not assume that the woman makes no contribution of fault. From the sound of many responses, many have had multiple failed relationships. Is there possibly a pattern here?

It is also interesting to examine the "courting ritual" of the American Society as it is now. How many folks really give a good look at the other person in terms of their skills in a relationship and in life in general for that matter? My guess is that now a day, folks use their endocrine system to make their marital partner decision without giving any examination to the issues that make a relationship viable.

And my gosh, you CANNOT have a conversation with him, he has zero interest in participating in either social or goal-oriented conversation

Whether I should have realized this when I married him and it serves me right

How many women actually see a guy do something outside the "date"? I'll bet not many actually watched him cook or ate a meal he prepared. Most folks put more effort into selecting an automobile than they put into selecting a mate. How many men actually get to know what a woman thinks or has skills to maintain a relationship before they marry? How many women critically look at the man's skills for relationship before they marry? One good look at the other's ability to resolve conflict before marriage would probably stop a lot of folks before they get all the way to the altar.

If you want to know what a person is like, why not look at their parents? What kind of relationship do they have? How do they interact? How do they resolve conflict...even minor ones?

The reason I say that is because this is the role model the prospective spouse has had for their entire lives (in most cases) and that is what they know best. Many responses tell of what kind of person their father was. Who taught their father to be a MAN? Who taught their mother to be a woman? Look inward before assessing blame.

Interestingly as I said above, no one bothers to look at depression as a source of the issues. How has a marriage partner changed since the marriage? Do they have the same hobbies and joys they shared before the marriage? Do they seem like they get enough sleep? Do they feel guilty about things? There are a list of items which indicate the presence of depression and knowing what they are can help understand changes in behaviour. Certainly, if you want to marry someone, you want to experience their joy...what happens when that begins to erode? Do you still want to be around them?

Women are hardwired to require security, and men appear to be hardwired to require freedom. These can be wide interpretations but they do work. Women want a man to provide for them and give them a secure environment. Be honest and look at that concept.

Some women don't want a man for security, they just want him for "whatever they need at the time" and that can be money, love, sex (yes, they are different), support or just plain biologic advantage. I know of one woman who left a guy she really loved, to marry and have children with a guy she didn't love but who had "good genes" and a good family background. Now she wants to live with the man she loved all that time (who married someone else) and doesn't understand why he won't just leave his wife and "marry her". But she is angry with the fact that now that she is divorced, she has no security and can't expect it from the man who she wants to live with and is still married. Kind of a weird approach isn't it?

So, as you can see, the issues are many and complex. Where will they all be resolved? Who knows, but the best attempt is to be honest. If you always tell the truth, you only have to remember one story (Mark Twain)

I didn't read your whole response, but I really didn't need to. Pat is a very smart woman, and if her husband is depressed, sexually frustrated or whatever, I am sure she is aware of it. She did not ask our advise or opinion on this matter. She is aware of the hand of cards dealt to her, and wants to know--as far as the kids are concerned--how to go forward.

Basically my question is, how do you raise children to be decent upstanding people who behave responsibly and honestly and all that, when their father is, er, a very tall four-year-old and not a well-raised one at that

this was her question. She has already stated that she has sought marriage counselling, and I would venture to guess that through the counselling, they have uncovered reasons as to why, what etc he is the way he is. She is not asking how to deal with him or his issues.

It seems to me that you are pushing this issue for personal reasons. If that is true, you really ought to deal with your own issues instead of trying to push them on to someone else.

 

[dianer29]

My husband and I are married 40 years. We married at 18. It is not always easy . I will tell you this Pat: life is too short to waste . We are 2 proud parents of 5 children . No we did not"have to get married" My first was born when we were 25. They are not perfect nor is our marriage. Figure out where you are appreciated and take it from there.

 

[DrakeMaiden]

It is also interesting to examine the "courting ritual" of the American Society as it is now. How many folks really give a good look at the other person in terms of their skills in a relationship and in life in general for that matter? My guess is that now a day, folks use their endocrine system to make their marital partner decision without giving any examination to the issues that make a relationship viable.

Unfortunately, in far too many cases I am aware of, women marry men for all the other qualities and then find out that there is a sexual incompatibility . . . caused mainly by consumption of certain adult materials, pre-existent to the relationship in question. That may explain why now that sex outside of marriage is not considered taboo, statistics say that fewer women are getting married.

As fun as it is to debate societal ills, I have to agree with what miss_thenorth points out:

this was her question. She has already stated that she has sought marriage counselling, and I would venture to guess that through the counselling, they have uncovered reasons as to why, what etc he is the way he is. She is not asking how to deal with him or his issues.

 

[dragonlaurel]

Pat- You're a smart woman, and although you were worried about how they might turn out, you have probably been doing a pretty good job already with them. I don't think you said how old your kids are, or which genders. Kids learn so much by observation, that if you are doing anything that you would not want them to copy- speak up to them about it. Say something similar to:
It would be better if I could divide up house work differently, but I am having to compromise here since he believes that the work he does away from home is "his share" and this stuff still needs done.

Make sure they spend time with people who don't have strict gender roles in their families. A few good examples can go a long way. Teach sons and daughters all the house skills you know how to do.
If he is not very involved in raising them- they are likely to learn from you mostly. Your husband may not even notice that your daughter helped fix something or that the son put laundry in the machine or sewed his button back on himself. Just encourage them to be self-sufficient and praise them for their new skills/achievements.

All children should help around the house, to practice the life skills they will need in their homes and with their families later. Some jobs can be done by little kids. You can "teach them how to" do the other ones as they grow up. Phrasing it like "you're big enough to do . . . now, so I'll show you how makes kids feel empowered.