Savingdogs-Saving the chickens

[savingdogs]

Ohhhh..............that would have been good to know last night!

I think when I reached in there, I helped the last part of the placenta pass. It was on the floor of the stall when I was done. It kind of came out in pieces, not one glob like I pictured it would. Maybe someone else can help me figure that out. But we later found some placenta material in another part of the goat yard. She actually gave birth in the open area near the hay feeder and the kids followed her down into the barn. At least that is what it looks like.

Maybe Karen will chime in here on these placenta questions.

I really was not expecting more than one since my goats were so much smaller than everyone elses.

 

[framing fowl]

I'd like to know just so I know!

I came home from work this morning and DH asked how my night was. He laughed so hard when I told him I tag teamed with BB on playing online goat midwife. He wanted to know if you knew how long it had been since I'd been around them. I just let him laugh and said Mother Nature did just fine!

 

[savingdogs]

Heh, you knew a lot more than we did.

It was a little late in the evening for everyone in different time zones so I was so thankful when you guys responded. I don't think I would have ever gone to sleep last night, thinking there was another kid in there.

And unlike computers, which you have to re-learn techniques on every year....giving birth is still exactly the same as 20 years ago, it is as old as time!

 

[aggieterpkatie]

Hey SD congrats on the new kids! Just some info from me reading about your experience...

Usually once the placenta starts coming out, there are no more kids. I say usually, because I've never seen an animal give birth to another baby once the placenta starts coming out. And there should be 2 placentas if there were twins (which might mean why you saw "pieces", it could have just been 2 sep. placentas). I usually remove the placentas unless the mom eats it before I get to it. I provide enough nutrition that they don't really "need" to eat it, and most times they don't eat it (IME). She was still contracting because she still hadn't passed the placentas. She'll make colostrum for about the first 24 hours. After that it's not really good quality to keep.

If Ginger still doesn't want to stand still for the kids, you may have to hold her and place the correct teats (not the extra ones) in their mouths. Hopefully after a few times or a day or two she'll understand she's supposed to let them nurse.

And sexing the babies should be easy. Look under the tail for a vulva, or look on the belly for a penis and testicles.

 

[savingdogs]

She did eat a little of it, making my son create retching sounds loud enough for me to hear. We did take it away. But there were more than two pieces. I think she stepped on parts of it with all that pawing and stamping and broke chunks off.

So once any one placenta comes out, then the next are just to follow. I thought a placenta would follow each kid. That makes more sense now. I see what was happening, she was just contracting to finish off her labor. But it went on a very long time....maybe several hours? How long is a typical good goat labor including the kidding and expeling the placenta? I'm only experienced with a human labor where the placenta comes out immediately after and then you are all done.

The kids are nursing now and she is letting them better. I think at first they were too full and it hurt but when they made it feel better she appreciates it.

I sure wish I had not fallen and smacked my elbow. I need a chiropractor too and I'm all stiff and sore as I try to dart out there every few minutes to check. Good thing my goat barn is right next to the house. Hubby strained his back moving the goat kidding stall down there to the right spot so we are a sorry old couple. But happy.

 

[big brown horse]

Congrats!

Sorry for your elbow though. :/

 

[aggieterpkatie]

She did eat a little of it, making my son create retching sounds loud enough for me to hear. We did take it away. But there were more than two pieces. I think she stepped on parts of it with all that pawing and stamping and broke chunks off.

So once any one placenta comes out, then the next are just to follow. I thought a placenta would follow each kid. That makes more sense now. I see what was happening, she was just contracting to finish off her labor. But it went on a very long time....maybe several hours? How long is a typical good goat labor including the kidding and expeling the placenta? I'm only experienced with a human labor where the placenta comes out immediately after and then you are all done.

The kids are nursing now and she is letting them better. I think at first they were too full and it hurt but when they made it feel better she appreciates it.

I sure wish I had not fallen and smacked my elbow. I need a chiropractor too and I'm all stiff and sore as I try to dart out there every few minutes to check. Good thing my goat barn is right next to the house. Hubby strained his back moving the goat kidding stall down there to the right spot so we are a sorry old couple. But happy.

I'm sorry about your elbow. I fell in our work parking lot last week. I also landed on my elbow, but my shoulder took the brunt of the force and it's still sore. It's a bummer!

Usually they stop contracting the major contractions after they kid, then there will be less noticeable contractions (mostly inside) to pass the placenta. If the kids nurse, it will stimulate oxytocin release which will also cause contractions. That's why it's great to get the kids nursing soon so it'll help the doe clean. Perhaps your doe was just still contracting because of the placentas. Who knows.

It's hard to explain, but I've gotten pretty good at telling if there are more lambs/kids by looking at what is hanging out. If it is just amniotic sac and fluid, odds are there's another one. If it's "meaty" placental tissue, then odds are she's done.

The length of labor really depends. It can take hours after the first contractions start. Usually contractions start and go for a good while (a few hours) before kidding is imminent. When you see a bubble (usually the amniotic sac and some fluid will come before you see hooves/nose), it means the doe is ready to kid. Usually contractions will become a LOT stronger and more serious. If you see a bubble and the doe is seriously contracting and there's no progress after about a half hour, it's good to wash up and do a quick exam to make sure the kid is presented correctly (two hooves, soles down, and a nose following). If the presentation is correct, I'll usually wait a while longer. It's good for the sack to stay intact, because that amniotic fluid really helps lubricate things. If the sack breaks it's ok, but I never intentionally break them. If there are hooves but no nose, odds are the head is turned back. If there are hooves and a nose but no progress after a half hour of hard pushing, I'll usually help pull. If the white parts of the hoof soles are starting to turn yellow (drying out) then it's time to pull. You want to pull down, not straight out. If the doe is st anding, pull down to the grown. If the doe is laying down, pull down and in towards her belly. Only pull with the contractions. You may have to pull then wait, pull then wait. If you get the kid out past it's ribs, just keep pulling right out. Sometimes you'll get a kid "hip locked" where the hips of hte kid get stuck in the pelvis of the doe. If this happens (doesn't usually), just twist the kid and pull out.

If you see hooves but they're upside down, that means either the kid is backwards (hind legs first) or upside down. You'll have to reach in and feel. It's not as hard as it sounds, but it can be tricky. The key to assisting like this is to close your eyes and just use your hand to feel. Start at the hooves and work your way in until you feel a body. What do you feel? Do you feel the hocks or do you feel a body? If there are no hocks, then you have teh front legs. If you feel a tail, obviously you have the hind end. If it's just a rear presentation, go ahead and pull the kid, but don't waste your time once you get it past the umbilical cord. Once the cord breaks the kid will want to breathe in. If hte head is still in the doe, that could cause issues. I would just do a steady pull and get the kid out.

If you have front leg and the head is back, you'll have to reach in and pull the head into position. If there's only one leg, then you'll have to reach in and find the other leg and pull it into position. It helps to have a lamb puller in cases like this, or OB chains. You can also use baling twine in an emergency. Loop your puller around the hoof (being careful to not get any uterine or placental tissue in the loop) and pull the leg into position. Be careful not to let the hoof scrape against the uterus or you could puncture it.

The main thing is to RELAX and close your eyes and get a mental picture of what you're feeling! You'd be amazed at how your instincts will take over and you'll know what to do.

And, it's really important that if you have to do an internal exam, you need to wash your arm and the goat's vulva area so everything is clean! Warm water and a betadine solution will be good for this (NOT 7% iodine!!!) or just use a gentle soap if you don't have betadine solution. And make sure your nails are clipped! No long nails. Make a cone with your fingers when you go in the vulva. And go slow. Be gentle.

Usually births are pretty easy and go according to plan. It's best to be prepared though!


Once one kid is born, usually the doe will stop laboring so intensely and work on cleaning the kid. After a while (it's not uncommon for it to take 1/2 hour), she'll remember she's in labor still and get down to business with the second kid. If you see meaty placenta, she's probably done kidding. It's best for hte placenta to pass within the first 12 hours. If it takes longer it's best to give antibiotics or call a vet so they can flush her uterus. Usually they pass everything fine though.


Sorry to ramble so much. Once I got going I just couldn't stop!

 

[savingdogs]

Don't be sorry to ramble....I so wish I had read all this last night. I was freaked thinking things were not going well and I had to reach in and feel. I'm actually glad I felt it "empty" so next time I would know what that feels like as well.

I actually used a glove although I did wash my hand and arm first. my gloves were not super long so part of my bare arm went inside. With all her moving about and the bedding in the stall, I'm sure not everything was perfectly clean however.

Does this mean Ginger needs an antibiotic? If so, how much because Hubby is going to the store right now. He was actually going down for some copper because the OTHER doe who has not kidded, her black hair is looking a little reddish.

I'm so glad you "rambled" and explained how to help a poor presentation. That is what intimidated me last night, not knowing what I should DO about what I might encounter.

 

[aggieterpkatie]

Don't be sorry to ramble....I so wish I had read all this last night. I was freaked thinking things were not going well and I had to reach in and feel. I'm actually glad I felt it "empty" so next time I would know what that feels like as well.

I actually used a glove although I did wash my hand and arm first. my gloves were not super long so part of my bare arm went inside. With all her moving about and the bedding in the stall, I'm sure not everything was perfectly clean however.

Does this mean Ginger needs an antibiotic? If so, how much because Hubby is going to the store right now. He was actually going down for some copper because the OTHER doe who has not kidded, her black hair is looking a little reddish.

I'm so glad you "rambled" and explained how to help a poor presentation. That is what intimidated me last night, not knowing what I should DO about what I might encounter.

No, I wouldn't worry about giving her an antibiotic now. Unless your bare arms were really dirty or something, which I doubt. You just don't want any manure or anything getting in there.

This sounds crazy to say, but while I love when everything goes perfectly easy, I LOVE dystocias where I get to assist. Lambing/kidding/calving is so much fun for me...I absolutely love it!!

Shoot, dogs are barking like crazy upstairs. Better go check it out!

 

[Bubblingbrooks]

Colostrom is produced for a very short time. There is a 24 hour window for getting into the baby, after which it does no good, and the baby will have issues as a result.
The same is true of humans.
You often hear of new mothers being told that they are not making milk, so they have to formula feed.
Actual milk does not come in until 2-3 days later.