Sufficient Self Forum - Let's have a heart-to-heart

[Nifty]

Happy Thanksgiving everybody (well, at least those that celebrate the holiday)! I'm VERY thankful for the great community we have here and look forward to having a good discussion on how to improve our community.

I wanted to start a new discussion related to some things that have happened over the past few weeks. This is a continuation of some of my thoughts I posted here. I decided to start a new thread instead of continuing on that one that had meandered all over the place.

For those of you that know me, I'm a HUGE proponent of feedback. I may not always agree with you, or do what you want / suggest, but I promise I'll always listen and try my darndest to see things from your point of view. I've been speaking with a few members privately that have had their feelings hurt. We felt it would be a good idea to have a discussion about what happened and what needs to happen to learn, mend, and grow.

So, let me be VERY CLEAR: I'm opening up this discussion to solicit helpful, friendly, and respectful discussion. If you're heated, upset, want to vent, attack, etc. DO NOT post in this thread until you calm down. If you want to get it out of your system, you can send me a PM.

Related to the above, we have a rule regarding questioning moderation. This rule is not in place to squash feedback or stop you from venting frustration, but to prevent the equivalent of shouting "FIRE!" in a crowded theater. If you're ticket off and want to yell at someone, send me a private message. If you mistakenly post your venting, upset, and unhelpful comments here by accident I'll gladly remove it. If on the other hand you want to participate in a helpful, respectful, and friendly discussion... keep reading.

First off, let's set the tone: The moderators of this community care about this site and the members. They VOLUNTEER to help out. It's not like they are getting paid a ton of money to be here (just ask them ). As you interact with us / them please keep this perspective in mind: Our moderators aren't really any different from the rest of us... they are just tasked with more responsibility. They are interested in sufficient living and they care about this group which is why they accepted the call to help out.

Ok, so let's talk! Below is what I understand happened over the past month. If I missed or misunderstood anything, please let me know:

In the beginning of October we invited a member to be a moderator here. I made the error of misguiding this new moderator in her role here. That was my mistake and I take full responsibility for it. I should have eased her into the role vs. throwing her in head first. My mistake. I apologize to her and to all of you.

In the middle of October a POW was posted and a handful of members felt wasn't appropriate for our general community. We make VERY SUBJECTIVE judgement calls on this stuff all the time. It isn't a perfect science and we do the best we can with the resources available. I reviewed it and after some more discussion we decided to ask for a different POW. It wasn't a big deal, no warnings were given and the picture was swapped for another one. Unfortunately some members felt that we were on the beginning of a censorship warpath.

A few days later an announcement about our warning / infraction system was posted. We've actually had this system in place for about 6 months, but never got around to announcing it (yup, my bad again. ). Unfortunately this only cemented the perception by some that we were in the process of making huge changes to how we moderate this community.

These events came on the heals of some other brewing concerns about what is and isn't appropriate for this community. Each of the 5 communities I own / admin are pretty different from one another. Each have developed their own personalities and styles, and SufficientSelf has been growing and developing too and there were some pressures building.

The "last straw" seemed to be when some issues that came up around "questioning moderation" and a couple topics / posts were locked and removed. This just added fire to the impression that the forum was turning into a horribly censured Nineteen Eighty-Four "Big-Brother" forum.

Looking through our records there actually weren't very many more moderator actions taken (posts removed, warnings given, etc.). Unfortunately it seems that there was a strong perception that our moderation style was drastically changing for the worse. This is totally understandable because of all these things happening at once, and in an environment where some people were already kinda tense (as evident by some of the posts in the "where did everyone go thread).

So, that's how I understand things progressed. If your feelings, or those of a friend were hurt, it wasn't our intent. If you thought / think that the moderation style of this community has or is significantly changing, I can tell you it isn't. I'd guess that 95% of any action we take is as a direct result of a report. If you see more action from our moderators, it is almost guaranteed that it is a result of there being more reports. The "new" infraction system will make these "warning" more visible to you and our staff (not to anybody else). As I posted here , the system is not there to punish, but to inform and educate.

On SufficientSelf we tend to have a lot of VERY smart people that are often also very independent and self reliant. With this comes some strong personalities and opinions. Keeping this in mind, I've been VERY impressed with how well our community is able to maintain order! I collaborate with a lot of other forum owners / admins and you should see some of the stuff that goes on with their forums (example: a forum just for truckers that has very loose moderation... imagine the language, arguments, and content there ).

With strong independent personalities can come a lot of resistance to any kind of "censorship" or "warnings". We understand this, but at the same time we KNOW (because we've tested it) that this is the best way to foster an environment with great idea exchange and sharing in the most effective and enjoyable way.

Ok, it's now 2:43 AM and I have a LOT of Turkey and potatoes to eat tomorrow, so I should go to bed. This ended up being way longer than I expected and I'm sorry for that too.

Please feel free to reply with your HELPFUL & FRIENDLY comments, suggestions, and questions below. Please remember, this thread is an experiment to see how cordial and friendly we can be with this discussion. You have the power to determine how this thread goes and if we do this more often... just remember, with great power comes great responsibility (you'll be responsible for keeping this thread friendly and helpful)!!

Goodnight (or good morning?), I look forward to mending and growing our great community!

 

[Windyhillfarms]

The summary you posted is pretty much what I expected. From my understanding, the bulk of the "issues" went on behind the scenes, in PMs, etc. I think this thread is a good one, showing that you are open to discussion and want everybody really know what is going on (although truly nobody will ever know everything as most of it was conducted behind the scenes - sorry have to always show both sides).

I think a lot of this is people are very comfortable with their "group" or cliche of posters and quite frankly this has been growing a lot lately and perhaps cramping some "veterans" styles (i.e., the POW being "inappropriate"). Now, quite personally, I think the POW in question was entirely appropriate for this forum. It IS in fact a self-sufficiency forum and let's face it, meat doesn't grow on a tree ... To me, the "handful" of members who were disturbed by that picture should have been told "don't look at it if you don't like it" or something to that effect. That's just my opinion, but it seems that you sacrificed many for just a few. And that sacrifice came at a huge cost of knowledge, experience, etc. Now granted, I'm new and perhaps I have all of this wrong but you did ask for opinions, etc. Perhaps if this issue is raised again a vote among the community as to whether it is appropriate or not so that we can at least feel that we have the opportunity to voice our opinions? It could even be in teh form of a poll so that nobody can comment "inappropriately"....

Just my thoughts immediately after waking up so they may or may not be coherent ...

 

[Wannabefree]

THANK YOU NIFTY! Seriously, all some wanted was an apology or an explanation, and because we haven't had that, there has been alot of questioning. I can't blame them, it did give the appearance of being a very stiffling move on the part of the administration. It still irritates me a smidge how the POW issue was handled, but everyone makes mistakes. Even mods I think open discussion is what is needed and I totally agree with WindyHills assessment.

Can we all PLEASE just move on after this? This place has become one big fat split personality and it's getting old quick.

 

[Denim Deb]

I don't have time to comment now, I'll have to work on what I want to say so it doesn't come across as wrong, but I will say that much of it was handled wrong. And, IMO, Nifty is not the one who should apologize, but the mod that caused the problem-even if they DON'T feel they did anything wrong. It's how people viewed what they did.

 

[Quail_Antwerp]

In regards to that picture, I would like to politely point out that I previously used, without any issues, photos of members (myself included) of deer taken during deer season as the POW and a calf that was butchered out by another member here. No issues were raised over either of those photos.

The bulk of the people that left are the ones who are LIVING this lifestyle daily. Freemotion taught us all about making cheese - and even built her own cheese press! How cool is THAT? and without her, where would we have obtained that knowledge?? Sure, someone else may have come along and taught it to us, but she was/is here NOW and living this lifestyle!

OFG taught us all about how to raise and butcher dem pigz that smell so badly. She wasn't afraid to give a blow by blow of the raising, killing, and processing. She's cooking meals - high quality meals at that - for $2 or less a pop! I'd say there's a lot to be learned from a modern Calamity Jane, don't you?

There are others who left who make things like soaps, weave, felting, have good tips on gardening, know how to smoke meat, etc.

For these people to leave this forum, you really do lose a lot of the information needed to make this forum the success it is.

Also, it is kind of annoying (again, I am not trying to be rude) that some moderators ONLY show up here and partcipate on the forums when someone has hit the report button. Then for those moderators to come on here and berate members, and out and out say I only came on here because "I heard something was going on" kind of says to members that those mods are only interested in this forum when there's drama involved.

I would like to suggest you choose regular contributing members who are here on this board like it's their only lifesource as moderators. Someone whom is here all the time would have a better idea how the forum flows and how the different personalities here interact with eachother.

I'm just sayin'.....

 

[Wannabefree]

Deb I agree somewhat that a moderator should apologize, but it's Nifty's forum, and therefore Nifty's mess, and he said it was his fault...which as the owner he should take up for his mods. Any of us probably would too. Seriously, it has to be a difficult job, and not to make excuses for anyone, but I don't know that being tossed in I could do any better. The rule in question can be interpretted several ways. It was a simple mistake, and if it got worse behind the scenes, maybe there should be apologies there. I'm not sure everyone deserves an apology, but probably a few do. I just want to see this place back to normal er...usual I should say

 

[FarmerChick]

Many moons ago the topic of dead animal pics came up. So the Hunting/Fishing category was created. The hunters (at the time) were basically all in agreement to keep hunting pics in that category. No harm.

A pic was posted in public view. Someone didn't want to see it. So it got moved. I never saw this as censorship.

I am fine with that. I did not mind the picture. And I did not mind the pic being moved into hunting. I have absolutely no problem being a bit sensitive to others on this board about dead animal pics. We have a hunting section. Pics go fine in there and anyone not wanting to open that thread is their choice.

I don't know about the mod fight behind the scenes. Those apologizes (or whatever) must be handled between the people involved. But taking it to the board constantly is getting old. Fix it behind the scenes. Because when it gets on the board the older problems (like nasty pms and more) get drug up over and over again and everyone's teeth start to set on edge. Grrr

This is a good board with good people with a small problem that I see. We surely can move forward.

And for those that left, it is their choice. But slowly I see alot of them posting so many might come back. Who knows. But the board will move forward past this trouble and other troubles. Forums always do. New good people will join and have. As long as we keep the immaturity down to a low level this forum should succeed.

 

[Wannabefree]

Also, it is kind of annoying (again, I am not trying to be rude) that some moderators ONLY show up here and partcipate on the forums when someone has hit the report button. Then for those moderators to come on here and berate members, and out and out say I only came on here because "I heard something was going on" kind of says to members that those mods are only interested in this forum when there's drama involved.

I would like to suggest you choose regular contributing members who are here on this board like it's their only lifesource as moderators. Someone whom is here all the time would have a better idea how the forum flows and how the different personalities here interact with eachother.

I'm just sayin'.....

TOTALLY agree, it would be better that way. I agree with the rest of your post as well just didn't wanna quote it ALL

Don't forget Wifey and K0xxx the SS news encyclopedias, or bubblingbrooks with her nutritional information posts and Abi our comic relief extraordinaire who gives this place a boost in pure entertainment value ....wow, so MANY valuable folks have gone

 

[Quail_Antwerp]

I know, WBF, and I had no clue what Duckweed was until Wifezilla posted about it, and hydroponics (is that the right word?) or how much ducks loved peas! Wife brought a lot of duck knowledge to the boards.

And Abi is a great example of someone living as SS as possible while living in an apartment!

eta: the doom and gloom reports scared me, though! but it also opened our eyes to what's going on around us so we could be prepared.

And freemotion and wifezilla taught all of us a lot about healthy eating! and how yumm-o it can be!

 

[2dream]

I missed the whole thing and am glad I did. Thank you for the open explaination. Hopefully this open discussion will lay the whole thing to rest. We are all human and make mistakes. I know I have said things here I wish I had not. Forgive and forget if possible and if the forgetting is beyond a possibility at least lay it to rest and just Forgive.

I remember when this forum started - I remember when the journal section was started. We were all so excited we jumped right into making our journals. So much so that we stopped posting in other topics. I believe it was Ann who called our hand on that one. And rightly so. She reminded those of us who were here then that its not just about the individual, its about the group. We immediately started posting all over the place in other topics because we did not want to lose the journal section. For me that says - we worked together as a community and the common good.

The community is larger now but its still a community. Anytime you have someone new move into the neighborhood there is always those tense moments as they learn the normal workings and as we learn how they are.

I know for me personally there have been new members who came on the scene that made me cringe and say, "uh-oh this is gonna be a problem. Boy was I wrong most of the time.
It just took me a while to learn their tone and personalities. New members sometimes being use to other forums where aggression is apparently required take some time to settle in here. This group is different than most. We have learned a lot from each other - and we have had our moments. We just normally settle them amongst ourselves with little moderation.

As far as moderation goes - I have no clue how that works out for the mods. I am not one and don't want to be. I don't know if complaints were made by new members about old members or exactly how that worked - and I don't need to know. What I do know is - this is a Sufficient Self forum. For some of us that means killing and processing, planting and growing, canning and preserving, trying to make it in our own little corner of the world. For others it means growing sprouts in a kitchen window. It does not make them any less significant. However it also does not mean the rest of us need to walk on egg shells around them. We can respect their rights to not want to see some things by posting in the proper places.
As for complaints against others - I follow a simple rule - If I don't like the tones I utilize the big red X at the top of my computer screne and then don't go back to that topic. It works out great for me that way. I actually get more constructive things accomplished around my little corner of the world, the poster still gets to say what they want to say and we are both happy. Following that simple rule - not once have I ever had to complain to a mod that someone hurt my feelings, typed something that I did not want to read, or posted a picture that I did not want to see. As for the pic of the week. Well that kind of says it all. Its there for a week, then it will disappear.

Happy Thanksgiving to all - I have a turkey to fry.