The Vitamin D thing

[enjoy the ride]

Funny thing at the doctor's this week.
I had seen him a couple of weeks ago at which point he told me I was taking too much and that there was no reason to think that vitamin D levels could effect my joints. I told him that my levels were below normal at 2000 IU/day and it did effect my joints and just rose to low normal at 4000 IU. He then informed me that that was against all the training he had at MEDICAL SCHOOL. Emphasis was his. He waived his hand at the computer screen where the test levels were shown as high. I said I thought it was a typo.
He sent me for a bunch of blood work that day.
I called back the next day when I had looked at my copies of the lab tests to reaffirm about it being a typo- the Doc called me back to tell me that the new test came back as low normal and I should continue taking what I was taking. I brought up the "typo" again where at he told me that it didn't matter what it said because he had a new test now. Oh well- I do know when to let it go............

And I've upped it by another 2000 per day as a result of the posting here- just to see if there is more benefit to be had. I'm such a wicked patient.

 

[Wifezilla]

It's a shame those doctors have to pay so much for bad information. I almost feel sorry for them!

taking high doses of any vitamin is best to be under a doctors supervision, I would think.

Well, at least having proper test results.

 

[ZohBug]

I just wanted to add a few things from my own experience as someone who has had a severe vitamin D deficiency. It's important to have the correct vitamin D test which is the 25-OH vitamin D test and it takes a lab about a week to process the results. Vitamin D is actually a hormone, not a vitamin, which is one of the reasons why it is metabolized so differently by people regardless of the dosage. As people have already pointed out, it's important to know whether or not you're taking D2 vs. D3 and most Rx vitamin D is D2. D2 does work, it just isn't as bioavailable and will take longer to work. Vitamin D can be toxic which is why it is important to have your blood levels checked. The most current thinking is that toxicity occurs at 120+ so it's ideal to keep levels in the 80-100 range. For more information this, you can reference the Life Extension website which is where a friend of mine who is an integrative medicine physician refers some of his patients for "lay" information, but if anyone wants the research findings, doing a PubMed research is the way to go (and, of course, there's also the Vitamin D Council website).

When my vitamin D level was first checked a year and a half ago, it was "less than 5" which was the lowest the lab equipment could measure. This was the lowest value they had ever seen at my rheumatologist's office at a major teaching hospital. I was immediately started on 50,000 IUs 3x/wk. They also checked my parathyroid levels as that can be a secondary problem from vitamin D deficiency. It's been a year and a half with a whole foods diet, lots of sun, and I still struggle with my vitamin D level. I ditched the Rx D2 and switched to an otc D3 and my level finally began to rise but I still have to take the 50,000IUs 2x/wk to eke into the normal range. Consuming raw dairy from 100% grass fed cows along with FCLO and butter oil also helps. Whenever I'm diligent about it, I get a "buzz" from the D3 boost and I feel so much better which is a bit scary actually, but it shows the power of good nutrition and good nutrients.

 

[enjoy the ride]

Zohbug- did you parathyroid levels come down with the higher doses?
Have you heard anywhere why some people find it hard to keep the Vit D level up?

 

[ZohBug]

Zohbug- did you parathyroid levels come down with the higher doses?
Have you heard anywhere why some people find it hard to keep the Vit D level up?

It's been a year and a half -- my vitamin D deficiency was discovered in May 2008 -- and I'm still struggling with it. My parathyroid hormone levels are slowly approaching normal, but aren't quite there yet, but I also have some autoimmune issues.

I think it's important to keep in mind that vitamin D is a hormone and not a vitamin the way we think of vitamins because it is metabolized so very differently from person to person and then it can fluctuate throughout the year and even during the month within the same person depending on what's going on if we aren't on top of things. For me, personally, my body tends to "run lean" and I don't store a lot of excess body fat and I require more dietary fat than that (dat blasted) pyramid says we should consume. My total cholesterol runs below 100 with a very high HDL and low LDL and very very low triglyceride level so I actually benefit from animal fats and low carb dietary intake. Vitamin D2, even at 50,000 IUs 3x/wk which is the highest dose my rheumatologist prescribes barely brought my vitamin D level into the bottom end of the normal range so I had to switch to D3 along with pushing other dietary changes and I got it up to 52 and we dropped the dose and my level promptly dropped to 25 so we upped the dose again, but winter came, so we'll see. In the meantime, both of my kids tested in the 60s with my just giving them FCLO every now and then, and now that it's winter and we aren't outside as much, I give them liquid D3 (1,000 IUs) in raw milk every day. Same family, same diet, same sun exposure, different metabolism and absorption of vitamin D because they're younger, healthier, and aren't hormonal yet (they just act like it sometimes).

In researching why vitamin D deficiency seems to be a "new fangled" problem now as compared to the past, people have theorized that pollution and ozone may be a culprit in interfering with our ability to absorb it from the sun. There are also factors like processing of foods which actually may be inhibiting our ability to absorb it as well. For example, the synthetic vitamin D that is added to pasteurized dairy is not bioavailable so all of that pasteurized milk is actually not a source of vitamin D at all. However, dairy from 100% grass fed animals raised on good pasture is a source of vitamin D. Something that has been known for quite some time is that calcium inhibits the absorption of iron so people with iron deficiency (raising my hand here) are advised to not consume dairy and iron containing foods at the same meal, but rather to consume iron with vitamin C. Yet studies have shown that unpasteurized dairy does not inhibit the absorption of iron the way pasteurized dairy does. So this begs the question of whether or not all of this pasteurized dairy that is "enhanced" with synthetic vitamin D could actually be inhibiting the natural absorption of vitamin D that people could be getting from the sun.

Basically there are lots and lots of questions for which they still do not have answers, but they're all good questions! It's also important to remember that vitamin D works synergystically with vitamin A so watch that in the diet as well. I asked my rheumy that since calcium cannot be properly absorbed without vitamin D if one should take calcium when taking vitamin D and he didn't have a good answer for me. He just said, "why not?" So much to know!

 

[chicken stalker]

We all went on D last winter. It was the healthiest winter we ever had. My son tends to get colds but had 1 or possibly none (what would help my memory?!?) This year, on D again but he has had monthly colds so far. Still, considering all the crap that's floating around and the minimal sleep DH and I have been getting, I'm thrilled with our perfect health so far.

How much of a dose do you give you son? My daughter is prone to colds. We have a wonderful (warm/sunny) extended fall and she was heathy as a horse. Now that it is in the teens we don't go outside very much and the first cold of the season began this week.

 

[Wifezilla]

I require more dietary fat than that (dat blasted) pyramid says we should consume.

EVERYONE needs more fat that that blasted pyramid says. In fact, just turn the blasted pyramid upside down and THEN you have it right.

As for D2 vs D3, it isn't just a case of bioavailability, it is also a case of cost. D2 is VERY expensive. D3 is not. So why are they even prescribing D2 when the same high dose of D3 is much cheaper and more effective?

 

[ZohBug]

So why are they even prescribing D2 when the same high dose of D3 is much cheaper and more effective?

Big Pharma, but you know that. My insurance will pay for an Rx for D2 and I only have to ante up a $3 co-pay. I have to pay $30 for 100 capsules of 50,000 IUs of De for myself and $10 for a bottle of liquid D3 for the kids and Big Pharma doesn't make a dime. They've convinced the docs that they should freak out because I'm self medicating my family when we're taking the D3 even though the lab is making $$ off the lab work.

Interestingly, I had to plead my case with my rheumy for switching to the otc D3 and not seeming like a loony bird (for this, at least) by telling him that I had a reaction to some ingredient in the Rx D2. I just felt funky after taking the D2 and called the pharmacist who told me that he didn't see why I should have a problem with it so he gave me the number to the manufacturer, so I called Pliva and spoke with their pharmacist who told me that while none of their ingredients are "cross contaminated" they do use outside vendors for some of their ingredients and they can't vouch for the purity of the ingredients from outside sources. Can you hear me rolling my eyes?

ETA: yes, ITA with you on the fats. I got so upset when a friend told my 7yo to stop slathering (cultured, organic, grassfed) butter on her brown rice tortillas because it would make her "fat" that I almost went through the roof and asked her to leave my house (and she was visiting from out of town). She also told me that I would regret allowing my (long and lean) 3yo to drink fresh, raw cream. Mind you, we're all lean here and she's a good 75lbs overweight as is her dh and they eat a very typical SAD and she sends her kids out of the house after feeding them cereal every morning and they eat lots of soy and vegetarian fare and do lots of grocery store shopping. By comparison, I won't touch meat or dairy from the grocery store, we eat all organic, buy a lot at the farmers' market or grow our own, and buy directly from farmers. We eat very low carb, very very very low gluten (using only sprouted flour), lots of fermented and cultured foods, healthy fats, make just about everything from scratch, and are lean. I can tell you the names of the animals our dairy comes from and the names of some we eat. Fat is good stuff! At the same time, she's always asking why we aren't fat.

To be clear, I'm not insensitive because I was vegetarian or vegan for nearly 20 years and I made it up to over 300lbs. For the past 10 years since I've changed the way I eat, I have no trouble maintaining 140lbs on my 5'8" frame. So I've been there.

 

[Wifezilla]

I was vegetarian or vegan for nearly 20 years and I made it up to over 300lbs.

Me too!

All that "healthy whole grain" and lack of meat and fat nearly killed me!

Sorry your friend freaked out on you. That unhealthy brain washing is bad stuff. Glad I got out of it!

 

[ZohBug]

Sorry your friend freaked out on you. That unhealthy brain washing is bad stuff. Glad I got out of it!

She came up to help out with the kids after I had shoulder surgery in September and was supposed to stay 4 days. I asked her ahead of time what I should buy for her food-wise and she thought she could tough it out but she barely made it 36 hours before catching a bus back home (it's a 4hr bus ride). I ended up giving that food to the neighbors. That organic pasteurized dairy is $$ too, but she said she couldn't function. I took my dd out of ballet when I caught her getting obsessed with fat when she was 6yo. I had to explain to her that her brain needs fat to learn and grow properly and she pointed out how thin her ballet teacher was and told me about their "nutrition" lessons in ballet class. Now she takes karate. "A-ya!" When my kids point out that we don't eat the way their friends do, I just tell them that everyone is different and that it's okay. What we do works for us and keeps our bodies healthy and we don't have to do what everyone else does and we don't have to eat their M&Ms and we won't share our honeycomb with them. Hey, and we're the only ones we know so far who haven't had colds or that wretched flu so far this winter (touch wood)!