Where did we go wrong?

[patandchickens]

It seems a lot of people on this site are able to live on acreage but most people dont.

True, but worldwide LOTS AND LOTS of people raise a goodly proportion of their own food in cities. Especially in, like, much of Asia and in the former Soviet Union, but lots of other places too. You can actually produce an astonishing amount of food from a veritable postage-stamp of a garden, even just containers. It *does* require you to grow what grows well in that situation (mainly greens, legumes eaten green, and vining things that can be trellis-grown), rather than saying Oh, I believe I'll try corn this year. But if you need food, you grow what you can grow. Unless you have chosen to buy a house or apartment somewhere with a HOA or similar covenants, in which case you may be forbidden, but you know, it's generally a *choice* whether to live somewhere like that

Also many many communities in North America have some variation on the 'community garden plot' theme, where for a small subscription fee (usually) you can rent land to grow stuff right there in the city. It is not your backyard but as long as you can get there every few days, that's fine. MANY people do this, and where I've lived it's common for there to be waiting lists.

If this was my first year growing a garden I would give up. There is risk involved in growing your own food where the store always has something to eat. The weather has been so rotten that Im not going to get much. After the work and expense of gardening with very little to show for it can get depressing.

Well, that is part of the thing about gardening [pausing to check top of screen to see which of Rob's forums this is even ON ] -- it is a journey, not a vending-machine <g> But if you think about the whole of human history, and how most people on this planet still live today, isn't it sort of weird to EXPECT life to be anything like a vending machine, where if you put in X you are sure to get Y? I mean, it just inherently ISN'T, right? (Heck, even actual vending machines aren't a guarantee -- and I am thinking of one at the last job I had where I doubt I was batting .500 for getting a diet coke out of the darn thing. Of course I kept on trying. The need for caffeine before an 8 am lecture is a *powerful* motivator )

With more experience you will find ways of hedging your bets so that no matter which direction the weather deviates from ideal, you will have SOMETHING that enjoys it. And you will find ways of reducing the impact of odd weather or pests; for instance, the more abundantly 'happy' you can make your soil, the more surprise-proof your plants will be. But I would hazard a guess that practically EVERY gardener has SOME crop(s) every single year that turn out rather disappointingly. And sometimes, ones that surprise the heck out of you. More or less like everything else in life

So hang in there, it gets better - but it also gets *different*, as you get more used to it

JMO,

Pat

 

[sweetproserpina]

I think the answer depends on the age group as well.

Speaking for my peer group (20-30yr olds), I think that a lot of us just don't know how. We grew up as latch-key kids, with parents both working (or living with only one parent), and society encouraging them to keep up with the Jones'. There was no one to teach us, or time to learn things as people used to do, from one generation to the next. Because of that, so many of my generation think all this self-sufficiency stuff is Hard Stuff.

Very few of my peers would know where to start if they were making a loaf of bread, or that you could have a chicken in your backyard. They are amazed that I can make cheese - in my house. A lot of people too are so separated from nature, that growing your own food, or own eating eggs that came from a chicken's rump just grosses them out. (Where they think those supermarket eggs come from, I don't know, lol. ) We live in a world where everything ought to be hygienic and sterilized. We kind of know that a hamburger came from a cow, but we forget the steps in between...

Don't get me started on that two incomes to survive either. We are the only ones we know (in our age group) that survive on one just fine. But then again, we drive the oldest car, do all the repairs, don't eat fast food, and don't go to the mall, lol.

 

[Better Half]

My dad kept chickens in the hallway in the former Soviet Union. Ive read that in Victorian England people kept cows in the house. I wasnt there so I dont know if it was true. I know that lots of people grow veggies in small spaces. There are P-Patches with waiting lists and some employers have let their workers plant stuff at work rather than growing ornamentals. Im just saying that trying to be self-sufficient doesnt always work out. That's one reason it isn't that popular. In the past and some places still if the weather doesnt cooperate you starve. If I didnt have good experiences in the past I would look at this years pitiful garden and give up.

If half of the homes ban veggie gardens only half the people have the choice of living where veggies arent banned. I just heard on the radio that collecting rain water is against state law. From the article about it in the paper. Technically, rain that falls on your roof isn't yours for the taking. It's a resource of the state, which regulates the use of public waters through an allocation process that can take years to navigate. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/371529_rain21.html Governments are another damper on self-sufficiency.

 

[BrookValley]

Lots of great responses to think about! I appreciate everyone's input. I find it fascinating.

Pat, I agree, these things might not be as "rare" as my somewhat limited viewpoint, having only lived in one place, may make it seem. I grew up and live in an area that has, until very recently (past 10 years or so) centered around farming and rural life. Then technology took over, and the farms were cut up into tiny 1/8 acre pieces with a gigantic 4,000 sq ft home on each--complete with homeowner's associations that fine you if you put up a clothesline and bring the wrath of your neighbors down upon you if you plant a garden with *gasp!* scrubby-looking tomatoes instead of azaleas and neat little daffodils. But I have done a bit of travelling, and I see the same things happening in communities all over.

The thing that gets me most is not necessarily that there are those who choose to live beyond their means (too much house, too many toys) but that I get attitude from those who have chosen this way that they are somehow entitled to these things. I accept the fact that not everyone wants to live the way I do, and that's ok. I may not want high-priced electronics and expensive cars, but that if that's what floats your boat, ok. But the idea that you are entitled to these things (even if you can't afford them) blows my mind. No, you are lucky if you can have these things. I have some family members who, while awesome parents and very devoted to their family, emphatically refuse to think about not taking an expensive, week-long annual vacation to the beach--even though they have no savings and barely afford to pay their basic bills. Their response, to my mother who tries to counsel them to help them save money--"I will not let my kids go without!" Without what?

I also see a big disconnect between people and their food supply (and the rest of the world, for that matter). An often-told funny story in my husband's family is how his younger sister--when she was not-so-young--was quite sure that tuna fish came from a can. That somehow some magical thing just created it, and plopped it in a can. She had no idea it was fish, that lived in the water, that had to be caught and processed before it ever saw a can or the grocery store shelf.

Pat, I was just having a very similar discussion with my farrier this afternoon about growing food in cities (my farrier is an awesome guy--not only does a great job on the horses, but he's a walking encyclopedia of sufficient living) or in small spaces. Seems as though some groups of people are growing a good deal of food in their tiny front lawns in Washington, D.C.--and are being told that they cannot do that. Neighbors are complaining. Among the reasons why they should not be allowed to do it? It will attract rodents. I don't know if any of you are familiar with D.C., but let me tell you, the rats there are the size of my goats and I think it's safe to assume that they didn't get that way from a few city garden plots.

 

[patandchickens]

For every story about people not being allowed to grow veggies in their front lawns, I can find you another about new community gardens being formed, and cities and towns changing laws to formally *allow* chickens; or perfectly normal average people who've been sewing their own clothes and canning tomatoes for decades or for ten years since they went to college or whatever you want.

I still quite honestly do not think it is NEAR so unusual a thing as it seems from tv, newspapers and everything else that makes up our impression of what the other 99.999% of the world is doing.

Anyhow that seems FAR likelier than the alternative possibility, which is that in the 7 different states that I've lived in in the past 20-25 yrs (well ok, 6 states plus a province <g>) I have somehow ALWAYS managed to land in the one odd rare corner where there really are people who do these things. By no means everyone but, when you get into conversations with people, a WHOLE lot more than you might expect.

JMO,

Pat

 

[me&thegals]

*People don't need to be self sufficient. So far, most people have plenty of $ or debt tolerance to buy it themselves

*People feel too busy with their careers to try

*Folks don't know the skills any more for being self sufficient and nobody in their social group to teach them

*Americans have so long been reliant on commercial goods, I truly don't think it occurs to people to do otherwise

*America is not structurally set up for people to have cooperative communities to provide things for each other.

*We do not have the infrastructure in most places to walk or bike places (think urban sprawl)

*AND (drum roll) I think lots of people are forming a groundswell in that direction! I have a small CSA that provides shares of local fruits and veggies to families. There is a HUGE amount of that going on in my area. People are moving back to local, fresh, organic, natural. Just my opinion. Even though it's not self sufficient, per se, it is a different mindset than relying on big corps.

Way to go, Sweetproserpina! I agree. For every person who thinks an SS person is an odd duck, there is another for whom the light goes on, who wants to learn how to do that (insert SS skill, like making yogurt) themselves.

 

[patandchickens]

*People don't need to be self sufficient. So far, most people have plenty of $ or debt tolerance to buy it themselves

*People feel too busy with their careers to try

*Folks don't know the skills any more for being self sufficient and nobody in their social group to teach them

*Americans have so long been reliant on commercial goods, I truly don't think it occurs to people to do otherwise

*America is not structurally set up for people to have cooperative communities to provide things for each other.

The cure for every one of these things is, of course, grad school Clearly everyone needs to spend five years or so as a grad student, with next to no income but living among a buncha OTHER people with ALSO next to no income and thus a culture grows up (which gets transferred to each new generation of grad students) of extreme frugality, walking/biking, growing your own food, making rice and beans an appealing year-round menu, dumpster-diving, etcetera. You learn all sorts of lifelong handy things.

Ha ha But actually it is TRUE


Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

I still see alot of "it" as personal want. What people want out of life.

Problem being, keeping up with the Jones' in the older days, meant what your neighbor had.....now with commercials from anywhere in the world, access to internet buying, etc. etc.....we see IT ALL and so many people WANT it all.

For people like me, I only want certain things. Like my camper...LOL...other than that and my farm and horses and such, I don't care about "other things"----I head toward simple and de-cluttered and all "stuff" to me is clutter..LOL

So it is just a bombardment of stuff from everywhere in the world and some people define themselves with stuff. If they want it, then buy it, but when you bog yourself down with stuff, eventually you have to work to afford that stuff and you lose precious life time.

I would rather have financial freedom than stuff anyday. Not having debt burder from buying junk in general is the best feeling I ever could experience! One I would never give up, but that is me....to some they would think I am crazy not to put a $1200 fancy tv on a credit card...LOL

everyone is sooo different but obviously in this forum we head toward frugal and green which are great options in this world today!

just chatting and enjoying doing it..

 

[BrookValley]

Maybe I should have put it another way--I agree, there are a lot of people doing these things (things that we call frugal, self-sufficient, "green", what have you). Yes, I get a lot of strange looks from people when I tell them I have chickens for eggs, but I have also met a lot of people who do similar things, too. I guess I don't mean so much as why is it a rarity, but more along the lines of why aren't more people doing these things? There might be a lot of people doing these things, but it's not the norm.

I do see a trend towards more self-sufficient practices. I have a lot of interest in my chickens, for example--more and more people want to raise their own eggs/meat. I also work at a local health food store, and this gives me a perspective from a wide cross-section of our community (we really have a very diverse customer base). I see a lot more people interested in CSAs, local produce/meat, etc., and just organic/natural products in general. But I wonder how much of this is because all of the sudden "green" is trendy, and how much of this is an honest, down-to-the-core desire to be more self-sufficient or environmentally conscious? If you go to a health food store and by organic products, it can be pretty pricey. For how many people is this different than wanting the latest and greatest flat-screen t.v. (or whatever is the sought after fancy technology these days--I wouldn't know, my t.v. is 20-something years old )?? For some people, it's not. They come buy fancy, pre-packaged natural food because the media and slick marketing campaigns tell them that they want these things.

Of course, I am happy that things seem to be trending towards more natural, more sustainable practices ; but I'm not holding my breath that these things are going to become the normal way of life for a great number of people. I fear that "green" will fizzle out when it goes out of fashion; self-sufficiency will go by the wayside when gas and food prices drop.

My, am I cynical tonight!

 

[Cassandra]

Isn't it some sort of classism? Since time immemorial, there have been the working class and the upper crust--those rulers and lords and landowners who actually prospered because of the work of a lot of other people.

Here in the good ol' USA, every person has the opportunity to reach the top.

In nature, the stronger beast has access to the finest resources. And because (here in the U.S.) everyone is allowed to have everything, we can each be like kings! (philosophically speaking.) And of course we want to groom our children to this highest of positions on the totem pole, so we start feathering their nests early.

We are cheating our way to being the chief. At least that's what it feels like when we have as good as or better stuff than the chief across the street.

Cassandra