Where did we go wrong?

[me&thegals]

Tell me if I'm wrong. It seems like 20 or so years ago when I was growing up, a person could guess how much another person made by their car, house, toys. It seems like these days that may not be an indicator of their income at all--maybe only their debt load.

When did we start thinking we had to have it all? Is this a product of the wealth of the baby boom generation and now their children?

 

[Rosalind]

The cost of living in your area seems shocking to me. You could, quite easily, pack up and move to Mississippi (near me!) and live extravagantly on $60,000 a year.

That's what I'm saying--I CAN'T make $60,000/year in Mississippi. Neither can DH. Jobs in my field, in the Midwest and the South, pay about $10/hour, with a college education and some experience. No kidding. DH's colleagues in Mississippi basically don't have careers so much as they have hobbies that pay a little--most work at tattooing only part time, because they can't afford to make so little money full-time. So my choices are this:

1. Live somewhere with a low cost of living and don't make enough money to eat, with no health insurance, where being self-sufficient will not be optional because the other choice will be starving and/or declaring bankruptcy. Been there, done that, got a couple of t-shirts from Ohio--the Kent State memorial one is my favorite. I lived in low income housing, commuted 90 minutes to work one way, six days a week, and had no health insurance.

2. Live somewhere with an obnoxiously high cost of living (Northeastern metro areas, San Francisco, Germany, etc.), pay through the nose to live, but make enough money to be fairly comfortable. Eat, work in non-hazardous environment, live in middle-class housing with low crime rate, sleep well at night knowing that I am financially and insurance-wise able to handle most challenges.

The sad truth is that there are not as many jobs as there are people who need work. And paychecks have had very little to do with costs of living over the past decade or two.

 

[Cassandra]

Rosalind, do you mind if I ask what field?

I'm not trying to get you to move to MS, promise. And it doesn't shock me to hear that there's no industry in your chosen field here (far from it!) I am just curious.

I'm not sure what it is about Mississippi that keeps people here. But I have had several people mention to me lately about themselves or their family/friends growing up here, and couldn't wait to get away! Then, the go out into the world for a while and they come back. I did that. My parents did. We get out and get a taste of the big wide world and and twice as much income and we give it up and go back.

It's weird!

Simple country livin' in Mississippi:

We moved to this house because we want our son in this school district. When he is out of school, we may do something else if we can't buy some more adjacent land. We'd really like a few more acres. John likes cutting the grass since he got the troybilt pony. LOL

Cassandra

 

[sweetproserpina]

... And paychecks have had very little to do with costs of living over the past decade or two.

Isn't that funny?
It seems that some places the prices are just so inflated that one wonders who is able to afford them, and what their occupation is. I used to think to myself when I lived in Vancouver, "where do all the secretaries, teachers, janitors, hotel clerks, librarians etc. live?"

Last year we moved cross country from out west because there was no way we could ever 'get ahead' out there and live the lifestyle that we wanted for ourselves. I had a good paying gov't job, but with an old bungalow costing over 500000$, it would have been impossible for us to ever consider buying a little house, let alone somewhere with room for chickens, a garden, and a garage. And staying home was important to me, and I could never see that happening out there money-wise. I loved my career, but I didn't love it enough to give up on my other goals. On the other hand, my brother loves his career above all other things- it's his dream job, but he has to live in an expensive city to do it, which he does quite happily because he gets to do what he loves every day.

I think a lot depends upon a person's priorites and life goals. Is career important? Is land important? Is city/country important? I don't think self-sufficiency is limited to one kind of folk. Look at the pathtofreedom.com family out in Pasedena, or the couple who wrote the 100 mile diet living in downtown Vancouver, they are great examples of how people can lead their own versions of self-sufficient lifestyles.

"When did we start thinking we had to have it all? Is this a product of the wealth of the baby boom generation and now their children?"

Do you think it's a product of all the advertising and commercialization in the world today? That we are bombarded by so much stuff that claims we need it that many people can't resist? I know when I walk into a large big box store I always feel overwhelmed by all that 'stuff' and even start thinking, well maybe I do need that.

My grandma said once that when she was growing up there was one kind of soap that you used for everything - soap was soap. Now we have to have a different soap or cleanser for every different cleaning job. Do we really need them all? Or is it just "them" telling us we do?

Great topic guys!

 

[enjoy the ride]

I think that advertising may be bad for younger folk- sort of waiving temptation in front of them But TV seems to be worse- it's sneakier. All the shows seem to be in houses and apartments that are very large and filled with stuff like a furniture store. Not homey or quirky (my word for a small, irritating thing that I am not going to fix,) or messy in a real life way.
I think that lots of people have the idea that, although they don't personally know anyone who lives like that, the whole rest of the world must have more than they do.
I remember that show from a couple of seasons back where a family was picked to have their home taken down and a new built within a couple of weeks. This was billed as a charitable act for derserving people.
I remember thinking that the homes that were implied to be deficient and needed rebuilding were pretty nice and normal. The whole purpose seemed to be a display of the designer's art. Not homey at all IMO.
I can understand the lure to the families involved but what a bad message to send to everyone else. The only one on that show I really liked was the house rebuildt to accommodate a disabled son.

 

[Cassandra]

Oh, I liked that show. Extreme Makeover Home Edition. But I do enjoy architecture as art.

They are definitely trying to sell something (Sears appliances for one! LOL) but I enjoy the stories. Most of the time I feel like I'm a pretty decent person. But after watching some of the families the show has chosen and their charitable acts, it makes me look like big ole scrooge! but anyway...

I think we would all do well to remember that every sort of media is trying to sell something. Even the news. They aren't as interested in getting out the truth as they are in selling ad spots. We have been without TV most of the time for the past two years now and I see my outlook on things slowly beginning to change. I still see advertisements in other media (internet, magazine, etc) and think, "Ooo! I want that!" but I am AWARE of that now and it doesn't feel normal any more. It feels invasive.

Cassandra

 

[miss_thenorth]

Re: where did we go wrong. My observations.

When my grandparents first came to Canada, They came with 35 cents, a trunk full of belongings (they weren't allowed to bring any more), 12 kids, (one to be born later in Canada). They had a sponsor who would house them and give the boys and my grandfather a job on the farm.

They were lucky. They had a good farmer to work for--one who sold them land after so many years work, so that my grandfather could start out on his own.

It was a difficult life for them. Th had hydro, but no running water, obviously no indoor plumbing, aka toilets, they heated with wood, cooked with wood, washed with a ringer washer, had to line dry whether the weather permitted it or not. I am not sure of all the details of my G'ma's life, but Iknow it was the woman's job to take care of the homestead livestock, garden, baking, laundry, housekeeping, meal preparation etc.

Men --as in grandfather and sons older than grade 8 had to work in the sponsors fields. Older daughters had to help their mother with chores, and raising the younger ones.

Life happens, the sexual revolution where birth control allows you to have sex without the risk of getting pregnant. Yay for women, right? No more 13 kids!!!

Machinery got invented /was more easily accessible that made life easier for farmers.

Same with household items for the women. Essentially life got easier b/c of commercial items, but there came a price tag attached. Women started working outside the home.partly to "get out", and also b/c housework wasn't as time consuming as it used to be., and not so many kids. There was also not a thing called credit. If they wanted/needed it, they had to save--and that meant they had to do without other things in order to save for this "thing" they needed/wanted.

Somehow things got twisted so that women "needed" to go out and work, so they could afford their lifestyle--as in to buy things to make their life easier at home.

Advertisers went with this roll--started marketing things like paper towels, disposable diapers, babywipes, kleenex-as in tissues, paperplates and plasic cutlery,--all to make our lives easier, but wait--it doesn't stop there. Just watch TV today, and see all the disposable things they are offering--swiffers, and their whole line of products. Look at all the cleaners that you can waste your money on--you name it.

It all boils down to, IMO that we have been raised to think we need these things, and I'll be the first to admit, I fell for it--b/c I didn't think.

I didn't think about how they did it before my generation. Paper towels?? Unheard of when my grandmother was raising kids. They used rags, hankies, cloth diapers, regular old mop and pail, or heaven fobid--got down on their kneesto clean a floor. Disposable diapers and wipes? My G'ma only dreamed!!!!! 13 kids--could you imagine the diapers???? Toilet paper? (try the sears and roebuck catalogue.)

And here we think these are necessities!!!!

We have been conditioned to think we need certain things when we really don't need them at all.

When I see the TV advertise something useless and frivolous, I outloud say to my kids--GIMIC!!! they just want you to spend your hard earned money on their useless trash. I've got better things to spend my money on!!!! and that starts a whole new discussion on spending your money wisely.

Where did we go wrong?? I think it was when we stopped thinking for ourselves and let the media do our thinking for us. In part. I also think our parents saw how hard their parents worked, and didn't want the same life for them. so the cycle repeated and snowballed.

But really, I think we need to find a happy medium between modern convenience, and the pioneering efforts of our grandparents (or greatgrandparents for some of you younguns).

Here at my home, we have reached our happy medium, and I have lived MUCH more self-sufficiently at a previous time, by choice, and was happy doing so.

But right now--what we are doing/how we are living works for us. What we need to do is think for ourselves though, and not let other ppl do that for us. With that, you can make conscious choices on how you want to live, how big of a "footprint" (sorry, yote) you want to leave. We need to think about things.

Sorry if this just sounds like rambling.

 

[patandchickens]

What we need to do is think for ourselves though, and not let other ppl do that for us. With that, you can make conscious choices on how you want to live, how big of a "footprint" (sorry, yote) you want to leave. We need to think about things.

That is SO well put. Brava!

Thought and self-control seem to have gone temporarily out of style. Hopefully we can at least raise kids who will value them in the *next* generation. Although unfortunately by then they may not have as many occasions to need it :/


Pat

 

[BrookValley]

Where did we go wrong?? I think it was when we stopped thinking for ourselves and let the media do our thinking for us. In part. I also think our parents saw how hard their parents worked, and didn't want the same life for them. so the cycle repeated and snowballed.

But really, I think we need to find a happy medium between modern convenience, and the pioneering efforts of our grandparents (or greatgrandparents for some of you younguns).

I don't think you sounded like you were rambling at all. It makes perfect sense to me, and I wholeheartedly agree. I have certainly fell for my share of useless junk and "convenience" items, and I don't expect that I'll be living like any of my Menonite friends any time too soon--but I agree, there is a happy medium somewhere. I'm slowly muddling my way to medium...

And I think that there is more to your "footprint" than environmental effects. The other thread has made some good points there, so I don't really want to open up that can 'o worms here, but you don't have to believe in global warming to recognize and understand that our wasteful actions have a negative impact on the rest of the world and future generations. Even if you look at purely from, say, an energy standpoint--you can see where not researching alternative energies just furthers our dependence on petroleum and that is just a nasty path we're heading down....costly, causes wars, makes us less safe...these aren't messes that we need to leave for future generations (though we may already have). But until the common culture changes its mindset that we need it all and we need it now, it doesn't seem like too many people are going to pay attention to the ripple effect that their actions now are going to have.

 

[Beekissed]

Just thought to revive an older thread to let newer members give their take on the subject...