Henrietta23
Yard Farmer
We're all pulling for your babies. I'm so sorry you're still going through this and now with Flower too.
Blossom & Flower, a sporatic goat journal _ I think Billy has CL
- Thread starter FarmerDenise
- Start date
We're all pulling for your babies. I'm so sorry you're still going through this and now with Flower too.
noobiechickenlady
Almost Self-Reliant
I'm so sad to hear this. I hope your babies get on the mend soon.
DrakeMaiden
Sourdough Slave
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I agree with Justusnak . . . my first thought is that it sounds like they are eating something that is bad for them. I hope you have gotten some rest! Best wishes for you all!
- Thread starter
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FarmerDenise
Out to pasture
Flower had seizuers all night long. We had her at the vets by 8 am. Her temp was over 105. She was laying on her side with her neck arched back.
The vet said it was not poisoning. She has a respiratory infection and polio. He said there was nothing that we did or didn't do to cause this. It is just a freak thing. I have a big bag of filled syringes, electrolite solution and instructions for administering them. She has a catheter in her, which will make it easier. She is also blind!!! He said there is a small chance that she may get her sight back, since we caught it (the Polio) early.
I spend the last of my savings on her $228. I don't know what I am going to do for car repairs and such. I need new tires badly and eyeglasses. Oh well. I least I had the money for the vet.
Blossom is slowly getting better. We can still keep her in the x-pen. She isn't jumping around yet. She is still a bit uncoordinated. She has a good appetite and I am slowly introducing solid foods to her again. She still needs help figuring out how to get a hold of the nipple on the bottle. but once she does, she drinks it all down.
I think I am going to have all grey hairs after this. I am way stressed out. Now I get to have money worries on top of it all
SO and I have been taking turns crying over our babies. And supporting each other. DD brought diapers for the goats yesterday, which was truly a god sent.
Please keep us in your hearts and prayers.
The vet said it was not poisoning. She has a respiratory infection and polio. He said there was nothing that we did or didn't do to cause this. It is just a freak thing. I have a big bag of filled syringes, electrolite solution and instructions for administering them. She has a catheter in her, which will make it easier. She is also blind!!! He said there is a small chance that she may get her sight back, since we caught it (the Polio) early.
I spend the last of my savings on her $228. I don't know what I am going to do for car repairs and such. I need new tires badly and eyeglasses. Oh well. I least I had the money for the vet.
Blossom is slowly getting better. We can still keep her in the x-pen. She isn't jumping around yet. She is still a bit uncoordinated. She has a good appetite and I am slowly introducing solid foods to her again. She still needs help figuring out how to get a hold of the nipple on the bottle. but once she does, she drinks it all down.
I think I am going to have all grey hairs after this. I am way stressed out. Now I get to have money worries on top of it all
SO and I have been taking turns crying over our babies. And supporting each other. DD brought diapers for the goats yesterday, which was truly a god sent.
Please keep us in your hearts and prayers.
Henrietta23
Yard Farmer
Continued prayers. I can't even imagine how hard this is for you.
justusnak
Almost Self-Reliant
OK, so being new to goats myself...I had to do a search on this disease. SCARY! Here is a link to the info I found...
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html
Thiamine is the only effective therapy, and treatment can result in improvement within a few hours if the disease is caught early enough. Thiamine is an inexpensive veterinary prescription. Producers should always keep thiamine on hand; the most commonly available strength is 100 mg/ml. Dosage is based on the goat's weight (4-1/2 cc per 100 pounds liveweight for 100 mg/ml thiamine) and must be given every six hours on a 24-hour cycle until all symptoms have disappeared completely to avoid relapse. Thiamine, like all B vitamins, is water soluable, so the goat eliminates daily what it doesn't utilize in the rumen. A sick goat's rumen doesn't produce B vitamins, hence the importance of adding them to the goat each day until it gets well. Initially thiamine should be given IM (into the muscle) but can be given SQ (subcutaneously) or even orally after several days of treatment. Some thiamine comes in 500 mg/ml strength, making the required dosage 1 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight. If thiamine is unavailable but the producer has injectable multiple B vitamins, check the label for how much thiamine (Vitamin B1) is present. Fortified Vitamin B Complex contains 100 mg/ml of thiamine, so the 4-1/2 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight dosage is appropriate. Injectable multiple B vitamins containing only 25mg/ml of thiamine require four times the 100mg/ml dosage (18-1/2 cc) per 100 pounds bodyweight, so the producer can quickly see the importance of obtaining the proper strength of injectable B vitamins. The key to overcoming Goat Polio is early diagnosis and treatment. Complete recovery is possible under such circumstances.
Since symptoms of Goat Polio can easily look like Listeriosis, this writer recommends that procaine pencillin also be used. Better to cover both possible illnesses with appropriate treatments when symptoms are so similar than risk the goat's dying. Administer high doses of procaine penicillin (300,000 International Unit strength) every six hours on a 24-hour basis until all symptoms have disappeared and another 24 hours have passed. Higher-than-normal dosage of procaine penicillin is needed to cross the blood brain barrier to put sufficient amounts of the antibiotic into the tissue of the goat's central nervous system. A chart of dosage by bodyweight accompanies this article. Give this medication SQ over the ribs with an 18 gauge needle so that the goat doesn't become a pin cushion of holes from repeated injections. Very Important: Continue all treatment until 24 hours *after* the last symptom has disappeared to avoid a relapse.Immediate treatment is critical. There is no time to waste with Listeriosis. Recovery is more difficult and time-consuming than Goat Polio. A goat can go blind and completely recover its eyesight and overall health if proper treatment is provided; such treatment can take days or even weeks, depending upon the severity of the illness and how quickly treatment was begun.
Good luck with your babies....your still in my prayers.
http://www.tennesseemeatgoats.com/articles2/listeriosis.html
Thiamine is the only effective therapy, and treatment can result in improvement within a few hours if the disease is caught early enough. Thiamine is an inexpensive veterinary prescription. Producers should always keep thiamine on hand; the most commonly available strength is 100 mg/ml. Dosage is based on the goat's weight (4-1/2 cc per 100 pounds liveweight for 100 mg/ml thiamine) and must be given every six hours on a 24-hour cycle until all symptoms have disappeared completely to avoid relapse. Thiamine, like all B vitamins, is water soluable, so the goat eliminates daily what it doesn't utilize in the rumen. A sick goat's rumen doesn't produce B vitamins, hence the importance of adding them to the goat each day until it gets well. Initially thiamine should be given IM (into the muscle) but can be given SQ (subcutaneously) or even orally after several days of treatment. Some thiamine comes in 500 mg/ml strength, making the required dosage 1 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight. If thiamine is unavailable but the producer has injectable multiple B vitamins, check the label for how much thiamine (Vitamin B1) is present. Fortified Vitamin B Complex contains 100 mg/ml of thiamine, so the 4-1/2 cc per 100 pounds bodyweight dosage is appropriate. Injectable multiple B vitamins containing only 25mg/ml of thiamine require four times the 100mg/ml dosage (18-1/2 cc) per 100 pounds bodyweight, so the producer can quickly see the importance of obtaining the proper strength of injectable B vitamins. The key to overcoming Goat Polio is early diagnosis and treatment. Complete recovery is possible under such circumstances.
Since symptoms of Goat Polio can easily look like Listeriosis, this writer recommends that procaine pencillin also be used. Better to cover both possible illnesses with appropriate treatments when symptoms are so similar than risk the goat's dying. Administer high doses of procaine penicillin (300,000 International Unit strength) every six hours on a 24-hour basis until all symptoms have disappeared and another 24 hours have passed. Higher-than-normal dosage of procaine penicillin is needed to cross the blood brain barrier to put sufficient amounts of the antibiotic into the tissue of the goat's central nervous system. A chart of dosage by bodyweight accompanies this article. Give this medication SQ over the ribs with an 18 gauge needle so that the goat doesn't become a pin cushion of holes from repeated injections. Very Important: Continue all treatment until 24 hours *after* the last symptom has disappeared to avoid a relapse.Immediate treatment is critical. There is no time to waste with Listeriosis. Recovery is more difficult and time-consuming than Goat Polio. A goat can go blind and completely recover its eyesight and overall health if proper treatment is provided; such treatment can take days or even weeks, depending upon the severity of the illness and how quickly treatment was begun.
Good luck with your babies....your still in my prayers.
ohiofarmgirl
Sipping Bacon Martinis
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this is what happened to Debbie.. its amazing. we got her some B vitamins, treated her with molasses.. and she totally bounced back. we werent lucky to have a vet that would treat her - but we found someone who we could call and that made all the difference. the next day (after we got the B vits) she was standing there just fine. the whole thing is amazing and i couldnt believe this was what it was.
and thank heaven for this Tennessee meat goats site! i followed their instructions for dosage and such.
this is good info for EVERYONE. the key symptom is the 'star gazing' - you'll know it when you see it.. they toss their head back like they are looking at something in the sky..and also they stand in a particular way, and stretch in a way you've never seen before. when you see that run for the Vit B. read this article for all the info so you can be on the lookout.
the thing that surprised me.. they talk about Thiamin like its some kind of fancy drug... its just regular ol' Vitamin B1... we got it at walmart for like $5. you dont need injectable stuff (altho i'm sure its better). we just followed the dosage (but you cant OVER dose - goat will just pee out what they wont use in a day).. crushed it up, mixed with water, and used a big non-needle syringe to give it to her orally. i think we did it for 3 or 4 days, several times a day.
thank heaven, FD, that you have a vet who knows what he's doing!
we are all thinking of you
and thank heaven for this Tennessee meat goats site! i followed their instructions for dosage and such.
this is good info for EVERYONE. the key symptom is the 'star gazing' - you'll know it when you see it.. they toss their head back like they are looking at something in the sky..and also they stand in a particular way, and stretch in a way you've never seen before. when you see that run for the Vit B. read this article for all the info so you can be on the lookout.
the thing that surprised me.. they talk about Thiamin like its some kind of fancy drug... its just regular ol' Vitamin B1... we got it at walmart for like $5. you dont need injectable stuff (altho i'm sure its better). we just followed the dosage (but you cant OVER dose - goat will just pee out what they wont use in a day).. crushed it up, mixed with water, and used a big non-needle syringe to give it to her orally. i think we did it for 3 or 4 days, several times a day.
thank heaven, FD, that you have a vet who knows what he's doing!
we are all thinking of you
justusnak
Almost Self-Reliant
I also found this on another site. DETAILED day by day of thier treatment on thier goat.
DISCLAIMER: PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS DOCUMENTATION IS NOT MEANT AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR CONTACTING YOUR VETERINARIAN. THE SOLE PURPOSE OF THIS DOCUMENT IS TO SHARE OUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH POLIOENCEPHALOMALACIA/THIAMINE DEFICIENCY/PEM/GOAT POLIO, WHAT WE DID FOR OUR DOE AND HOW HER RECOVERY PROGRESSED. COPYRIGHT U-SAY RANCH.
Brooklyn, 18 month old dry yearling Nubian doe, exposed to buck 5 weeks prior. Estimated weight 6 days prior to onset of polio: 170# (tape measurement of chest was 39.25)
Things we used for treatment:
* 12cc syringe
* Needles
* Injectible B Complex
* Bottle for forcing liquids
* Thermometer
* Fresh Ginger Root (for soothing stomach)
* Baking Soda
* Nutri-Drench
* Probios
Heres the super short version, Ive documented the entire crisis and her progress over the next week below.
Our goat Brooklyn had been acting sad C moping around for a couple of days, but we had been replacing the fencing around the goat pen. This sometimes spooks the girls, so we just kept an eye on Brooklyn. Usually when we notice them acting depressed/sad/mopey we give them a dose of probios (acidophilus for cattle); we neglected to do that this time. I dont know if that is why she got as sick as she did, but we will be more careful in the future to watch for them acting sad or depressed.
By 2pm, she had her first seizure. She was lying on her side with her four legs sticking straight out from her body. The seizure would cause her front legs to paw the air as if she were running, her back legs would stretch out until they were sticking straight behind her, parallel with her back.
We started treating her for Polioencephalomalacia [this is the correct spelling, btw] by 6pm with an injection of 1cc B complex. Later we were to discover that the dosage in an emergency i.e. you cannot get Thiamine (B1), was 12cc every 8 hours when using injectable B complex. Ideally your veterinarian would diagnose and prescribe Thiamine (B1) as goat polio is strictly a Thiamine (B1) deficiency. Within an hour she responded to the injection of B by lurching herself into an upright position, lying on her chest, with her front legs propped straight out in front to brace herself from falling over. Her neck was still stiff and drawn over to the left side. Prior to this, she was lying on her side, totally unaware of anything, enduring seizures about every five minutes. With the second injection of B complex (3cc, at this point we still didnt know how much to give her) she managed to hoist herself into a standing position. She was blind, weak and managed to stand only a few minutes. We gave her a third injection of B complex (3cc) and this time she got to her feet and stayed on her feet for the next eleven hours. Please continue to read on if you would like to read detailed documentation of her illness and how we cared for her.
I work for an agency that provides services for adults who are blind and visually impaired, so I understand the difference between blindness and visual impairment. Most people assume a person with vision loss is blind and make the assumption that the person sees nothing but total blackness. The fact of the matter is that only 15% of the blind population is totally blind, seeing only blackness. At any rate, I couldnt bring myself to say Brooke was blind when I could tell that she had impaired vision.
Click here for links to more information on Polioencephalomalacia/Thiamine Deficiency/PEM/Goat Polio.
DAY 1 Thursday, November 20, 2003
6:00am: Brooke isnt up with the other goats, lying down alone by herself. This was the first thing that caused us to suspect something was awry.
9:00am: Brooke is listless and not at all feeling like herself. We have perused our two goat books and havent found much information, maybe she is aborting? She did get up and walk around, urinate and had normal goat berries. We gave her some Nutri-Drench in water, as she was acting lethargic.
2:00pm: We panic, assuming Brooke is dying and in her death throes she has just had her first convulsion.
3:00pm: We now suspect bloat, and drench her with 1/2 cup of olive oil, and then tube her. We got out about 1-2 cups of yellowish-green liquid. She had been lying on her side convulsing every 5 minutes or so. She was totally out of it. Her neck was twisted upwards, and when she would have a convulsion her front legs would peddle fast, and her back legs would stretch way back until they were in line with her back.
We knew Brooke needed to get up off her side. We tried to make a sling to hold her upright, but it didnt work out. She did urinate while in a semi-upright position.
Three factors kept us from calling a veterinarian. 1) We have not yet established ourselves with one, 2) We have heard nothing but complaints about veterinarians in our area that they know little about goats 3) We couldnt afford to take the chance of calling a vet when we could probably do just as well or better, on our own. Ideally, I would have 1) preferred to have had ourselves established with a knowledgeable veterinarian, so we could have called for advice and access to prescription medication 2) had the money to be able to afford the vet.
4:30pm: I stayed outside with Brooklyn for awhile longer, but then felt like I had to get indoors and start researching the Internet to see if I could find out what was wrong with her. Just a day earlier on one of the goat lists Im on, someone had a doe down with Brookes symptoms. It was suggested that this other doe could have polio, listeriosis, tetanus, or poisoning. I decided that we would start treating with the cure for polio, which is injectible Vitamin B C three doses in a 24 hour period. It should be B1, but B1 (Thiamine) can only be obtained through your veterinarian with a prescription. We gambled by not giving Brooklyn antibiotics, because if she had listeriosis she would have gotten sicker. Another person on a list Im on had a buckling with listeriosis at the same time. She told me that they too started out with only the injections of B1, but her buckling got worse.
5:00pm: We pick up injectible B from the local feed store, syringes and Red Cell (for selenium, as our area has a deficiency). This is the B I got:
Durvet Maxi-B 1000 Injection NDC 30798-324-10.
Contents 100ml. By the way, ml are equal to cc
Each ml contains:
12.5 mg Thimaine Hydrochloride (B1)
Niacinamide 12.5mg
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (B6) 5.0mg
d-Panthenol 5.0mg
riboflavin B2 2.0mg
cyanocobalamin (b12) 1000mcg
benzyl alcohol as a preservative
Dosage per bottle: 1 to 2 ml per 500 pounds of body weight.
[When we went for the second bottle of vitamin B, we discovered that there was a less expensive kind that did not contain B12. The feed store owner told me that horse owners would go for the B12, as that is what horses need. So when I compared the bottles, and both had 12.5mg, I figured the less expensive B would work as well.]
6:00pm: Brooke has her first injection of B complex. We had never given a shot, we had no idea how much to give, so started out with 1cc [especially since the bottle said 1-2cc for 500 pounds of animal, this was instructions for cattle, though]. Shes still lying on her side, having spasms every 5 minutes or so, front legs peddling, back legs stretching way out parallel to her back.
6:30pm: We decided to bring Brooklyn into the house, because the temperatures were going down into the 40s, and so we could keep a close watch on her. We put her in our dining room. We brought in a piece of linoleum, then put a blanket over that.
We decide to carry her inside, no small feat, as she is a big doe. The last tape measurement estimate for weight was 170#. We found out that she actually needed a *lot* more of the injectible B, since it was primarily a deficiency in B1. The B complex Id gotten only had 12.5mg of B1. But we were still leary of giving the shots, giving too much (knowing that B is water soluble didnt seem to help much with the worry). Check Saanendoah for information on the correct dosage.
Once she got inside, after lying on her side for 15-20 minutes, she lurched herself up into an upright position onto her chest. Her front legs were propped straight out in front of her, with her back legs curled up near her body. This was a definite improvement, with only 1cc of B complex (12.5mg B1). Her neck was still stiff and arched to the side, but much less stiff. I put a beanbag chair under her head to help her hold it up since it kept slowly moving down, then shed lurch it up again.
8:00pm: Brooke is bleating out every few minutes, (a painful sounding bellow sort of bleat) and acts as if she wants to get up. She has begun to grind her teeth, (this indicates stomach problems) she is keeping her head upright now with her eyes closed, she is obviously blind. Her pupils do not react to light. Weve learned that she needs much more B (from 12cc to 64cc depending on whos giving the recommendations). We gave her 3cc. At this time we didnt know that the needle disconnected from the syringe, and were reluctant to poke her again right away, even though I knew she was going to need much more B. After the 3cc, she lugged herself onto her feet, but was very weak and swaying back and forth. She almost tipped over onto her head at one point, and soon laid down again (practically falling down). I also have given her a dose of probios. Her neck is no longer stiff at all.
10:00pm: We decided to give Brooke another 3cc of B. I was extremely confused about how much to give 1) it should have been only B1 2) I was getting estimates of giving 12cc of B Complex but only if it was fortified all the way up to 64cc. The bottle Id purchased only had 100cc, and was $8.25. Unfortunately, we dont have a lot of money so I was panicked at the thought of having to give 64cc three times a day for days! I guess all the advice was confusing me more than helping. But at least we were seeing improvement, even though our doses were not the recommended. I gave Brooke another dose of probios. [Later I learned that it is only necessary to give probios 1X in a 24 hour period. I was giving it to her because I was afraid of her rumen shutting down, and hoped the probios would keep it going to some extent.]
I got advice to give ginger mixed with 10 ccs warm water as an oral drench just in case it is poisoning as this works on the toxins. I had fresh ginger root on hand and made a tea of it. [2 cups of water and 5-6 thin slices of ginger brought to a boil, and steeped for 15 minutes). We were forcing liquids -- water with a bit of molasses and salt mixed in (for an electrolyte effect). We were using a mustard bottle, putting the nozzle into the side of her mouth, holding her head up and squeezing it into her mouth. It helped to hold a towel under her mouth to catch the drips.
After the 3cc, she again stood to her feet. She is still grinding her teeth, her sides are sunken way in.
DAY 2 Friday, November 21, 2003
7am: 6cc of B complex. I've been up with Brooklyn on and off, all night long. I couldn't sleep but a few minutes at a time. Every time I get up to check on her, she's moved to another spot. She seems to be staying on her feet and slowly walking. Normal goat berries this morning, but she hasn't urinated since yesterday afternoon. Brooke's vision is definitely compromised. She acts as if she is blind, but she does have light perception now. Her pupils react correctly to a beam of light.
8am: We thought Brooke might want to go out onto the porch, she seemed to be interested in the open doorway, but it is still too cold for her. She began shivering, so I made her come back inside.
9am: Brooke finally laid down once we brought her back inside. She was on her feet from 10pm last night. She felt cold to the touch (still had not located or been able to leave to buy a thermometer!) so I put a comforter blanket into the dryer and heated it up, then draped it over her. I gave her another dose of probios.
11:30am: Since she hadn't urinated in such a long time, we realized that we needed to start forcing more fluids, so we got 2 cups of water with molasses and Nutri-drench into her with the squirt bottle. I'm extremely worried about her rumen shutting down, since she hasn't eaten in such a long time. I've been offering her grass hay every hour or so, (she normally eats alfalfa) but she is not at all interested in it. I even offered her a baby carrot, which she usually loves, but no luck.
12:30pm: I remembered reading on a list about how if your goat's rumen is shutting down, you can sometimes help by stealing a cud from another (healthy) goat and give it to your sick goat. So we went out to the goats... we've figured out how to get the goats to hawk up a cud. If you rub gently on their neck, from their chest to their throat, scratching and rubbing, they like that, and eventually get starry-eyed and hawk up a cud. Our youngest doe, Lightning, urped up a cud, and I tried to get it, but she swallowed it right away. I waited for a few minutes, then tried again. I got a chunk of her cud, about the size of a peach pit. Lightning was NOT happy about this. ;-) We went back inside, and I tried to put the cud into Brooke's cheek... she didn't like the "ABC" cud anymore than Lightning liked having it stolen from her. Brooklyn spit it out, but I put it back into her mouth on her tongue, and just held it in her mouth for a couple of minutes. Brooklyn had been lying down since 9am, but stood up while I was trying to give her the cud. She still hasn't urinated.
2pm: More ginger tea with baking soda. (About 1/8 cup tea, 1/8 cup water, 1/2 teaspoon baking soda). We forced 2 more cups of water into her, with molasses and Nutri-drench. Finally, I realized that we need to get her most favorite foods to entice her to eat. There is one kind of tree on our property (we only have two of this certain type) and the goats really love them. So I went and cut a branch for her. She was interested! But she wasn't chewing off the leaves and twigs herself, she was just licking and nibbling gently on the branch, so I took bite-sized pieces off for her. She finally ate! She ate about twenty little bunches. I then gave her more probios. She pooped again, normal berries.
2:15pm: She finally urinated! Quite a bit, at least two to three cups, dark yellow. I attributed the color and strength to not getting enough fluids, plus an excess of B vitamins always color the urine bright yellow. We caught much of it in a bowl we had for just that purpose. Now the next improvement we're looking for is to see her chew her cud. She is also nibbling on grass hay, and finally drank water on her own.
3pm: 6cc B complex
3:15pm: We decided Brooke would benefit from some sunshine, and guided her out onto the porch. We thought it might also be beneficial for her to have a visit from her herdmates, so we brought our other two does up onto the porch for visitation.
8:00pm: Brooke is lying down in the hallway, we observed her hawk up a cud and chew it, three times. This is very good! She is still visually impaired.
11pm: 12cc B complex. Earlier today I finally bought a syringe that holds more than 3cc! So I was able to give her the full 12cc's that was recommended on the Saanendoah site.
DAY 3 Saturday, November 22, 2003
7am: 12 cc B complex. Brooke is still not drinking on her own, or eating without our enticing her with her favorite foods. So we're pushing fluids orally, and giving her favorite tree leaves. We also gave her some chapparel twigs, she ate just a couple of those, her favorite tree, and sunflower seeds. We will continue to force fluids today every couple hours.
3pm: 12 cc B complex. We discover that Brooke loves sunflower shells (yes, the shells -- the seeds have already been removed). I took Brooke's chest measurement, it's now only 36"? That indicates weight loss of FORTY pounds?!
5pm: We decided since Brooke is walking around the house at a pretty steady pace, and bleating questioningly -- as if she was looking for her herdmates -- that we should take her outside to see how she would do in her own environment. Taking her out to her own home seemed to do Brooke a world of good. Her appetite perked up immediately, and she began hogging down alfalfa like she usually does.
Since Brooke seemed to be responding so well to her own home, we decided to set her up in a private stall in the barn and see how she would do for the night. It is not possible to leave her with her herdmates at this point, as she cannot see if they try to headbutt her. I'm really torn between having Brooke in the house one more night, since it is supposed to get down to below freezing tonight, and letting her stay in the barn. I put her sweatshirt back on.
Brooklyn in her sweatshirt, Day 3
8:30pm: 8cc B complex. We are all so exhausted and its so cold out, I dont know if we can get out to the barn at 11pm, so we decided to give her a reduced amount of B, at an earlier time. When we got into the barn, she was lying down, and seemed comfortable. She isnt shivering, and its quite a bit warmer in the sheltered part of the barn that she is in, in comparison to outside the barn, where the other goats prefer to spend the night even with the wind blowing at 20mph!
DAY 4 Sunday, November 23, 2003
7am: 12cc B complex. Brooke did very well last night. She is up and talking, but still blind/visually impaired. This private stall opens out into a private yard. We let Brooke out into this small yard so she could get some sunshine. She is eating okay, but it still doesnt seem she is drinking, or maybe just not very much. So Im continuing to force liquids into her.
3pm: 6cc B complex. Were running out of vitamin B. I didnt realize it until the feed stores were all closed today. I cut her dosage to 6cc, and this hopefully will leave enough for the next 2 doses. I work tomorrow, so I wont be home to get more until around 5pm. Brooke is eating her hay voraciously. It doesnt seem she is drinking water, so Im still pushing fluids, a cup or so at a time. But she is urinating and defecating, so she must be getting enough fluids. She is really disliking my forcing her to drink. Shes beginning to fight me. She still appears to have vision loss. I think she can see blurry shapes, but of course there is no way for me to determine that.
Brooke had one more injection of B, 6cc in the evening. We pushed/pulled her into the barn for the night.
DAY 5 Monday, November 24, 2003
We decided to give Brooke 2 daily shots of B, 12cc at each time, starting today. Shes much better. We still forced some fluids, but she is eating alfalfa voraciously. We attempted to put her in the barn tonight, but she fought mightily. After we finally got her in the barn, she pushed her way back out in the yard. I guess Brooke wants to sleep out under the stars tonight.
DAY 6 Tuesday, November 25, 2003
Two injections of B complex today. Brooklyn is eating and drinking on her own. We took off her sweatshirt today, and let her spend time with her herdmates. The youngest doe, who was number three, is trying to move up into Brookes position C #2. Brooke is having none of it, and even though she is still not seeing very well, she is trying to shove the youngest doe. Brooke is moving around her private yard much quicker, so it seems her vision has improved. But at dusk, she is still bumping into the chain link fence, so her vision isnt back completely. Were still hoping that shell recover fully. Some research Ive found says that it can take up to a week for full recovery, so we really hope to see her vision return.
DAY 7 Wednesday, November 26, 2003
Brooke is doing much better today. We can tell that she is still experiencing some vision loss, but it is obvious that her vision is returning. She is feeling well enough, and can see enough to re-establish her position on the totem pole with the younger doe. After spending a few hours with them together, we decided she would be okay to stay with her herd. Shes doing very well.
DAY 8 Thursday, November 27, 2003
I observed Brooke eating and drinking normally today. All of the goats are gingerly lapping up water I guess its too cold to take big slurps of water like they usually do. As she is still experiencing some vision loss, we are still giving the B complex injections. The information Ive gotten online says to continue until the symptoms disappear.
DAY 9 Friday, November 28, 2003
We are cutting Brooklyns dose down to 6cc twice a day. She is moving quickly around the goat yard, but it is hard to tell if she has her vision back totally. She is in with her herd, eating and drinking well. I think well give her B complex for a few more doses, and continue watching to see if she looks like she has her sight back completely. I observed her today walk up one step, across a platform, and then when she got to the down step, she seemed to be just slightly off, as if she hadnt seen the drop off.
DAY 26 December 15th, 2003
Brooklyn began aborting today. I had wondered if her ordeal would affect her pregnancy, and possibly it did. She aborted at 8 weeks.
UPDATE
February 14th, 2004
To look at Brooke today, you would *never* imagine shed been blind, and on deaths door. I am so grateful we were able to bring her back to health. We had her bred again and her new due date is June 21, 2004.
DISCLAIMER: PLEASE NOTE THAT THIS DOCUMENTATION IS NOT MEANT AS A SUBSTITUTE FOR CONTACTING YOUR VETERINARIAN. THE SOLE PURPOSE OF THIS DOCUMENT IS TO SHARE OUR PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH POLIOENCEPHALOMALACIA/THIAMINE DEFICIENCY/PEM/GOAT POLIO, WHAT WE DID FOR OUR DOE AND HOW HER RECOVERY PROGRESSED. COPYRIGHT U-SAY RANCH.
Brooklyn, 18 month old dry yearling Nubian doe, exposed to buck 5 weeks prior. Estimated weight 6 days prior to onset of polio: 170# (tape measurement of chest was 39.25)
Things we used for treatment:
* 12cc syringe
* Needles
* Injectible B Complex
* Bottle for forcing liquids
* Thermometer
* Fresh Ginger Root (for soothing stomach)
* Baking Soda
* Nutri-Drench
* Probios
Heres the super short version, Ive documented the entire crisis and her progress over the next week below.
Our goat Brooklyn had been acting sad C moping around for a couple of days, but we had been replacing the fencing around the goat pen. This sometimes spooks the girls, so we just kept an eye on Brooklyn. Usually when we notice them acting depressed/sad/mopey we give them a dose of probios (acidophilus for cattle); we neglected to do that this time. I dont know if that is why she got as sick as she did, but we will be more careful in the future to watch for them acting sad or depressed.
By 2pm, she had her first seizure. She was lying on her side with her four legs sticking straight out from her body. The seizure would cause her front legs to paw the air as if she were running, her back legs would stretch out until they were sticking straight behind her, parallel with her back.
We started treating her for Polioencephalomalacia [this is the correct spelling, btw] by 6pm with an injection of 1cc B complex. Later we were to discover that the dosage in an emergency i.e. you cannot get Thiamine (B1), was 12cc every 8 hours when using injectable B complex. Ideally your veterinarian would diagnose and prescribe Thiamine (B1) as goat polio is strictly a Thiamine (B1) deficiency. Within an hour she responded to the injection of B by lurching herself into an upright position, lying on her chest, with her front legs propped straight out in front to brace herself from falling over. Her neck was still stiff and drawn over to the left side. Prior to this, she was lying on her side, totally unaware of anything, enduring seizures about every five minutes. With the second injection of B complex (3cc, at this point we still didnt know how much to give her) she managed to hoist herself into a standing position. She was blind, weak and managed to stand only a few minutes. We gave her a third injection of B complex (3cc) and this time she got to her feet and stayed on her feet for the next eleven hours. Please continue to read on if you would like to read detailed documentation of her illness and how we cared for her.
I work for an agency that provides services for adults who are blind and visually impaired, so I understand the difference between blindness and visual impairment. Most people assume a person with vision loss is blind and make the assumption that the person sees nothing but total blackness. The fact of the matter is that only 15% of the blind population is totally blind, seeing only blackness. At any rate, I couldnt bring myself to say Brooke was blind when I could tell that she had impaired vision.
Click here for links to more information on Polioencephalomalacia/Thiamine Deficiency/PEM/Goat Polio.
DAY 1 Thursday, November 20, 2003
6:00am: Brooke isnt up with the other goats, lying down alone by herself. This was the first thing that caused us to suspect something was awry.
9:00am: Brooke is listless and not at all feeling like herself. We have perused our two goat books and havent found much information, maybe she is aborting? She did get up and walk around, urinate and had normal goat berries. We gave her some Nutri-Drench in water, as she was acting lethargic.
2:00pm: We panic, assuming Brooke is dying and in her death throes she has just had her first convulsion.
3:00pm: We now suspect bloat, and drench her with 1/2 cup of olive oil, and then tube her. We got out about 1-2 cups of yellowish-green liquid. She had been lying on her side convulsing every 5 minutes or so. She was totally out of it. Her neck was twisted upwards, and when she would have a convulsion her front legs would peddle fast, and her back legs would stretch way back until they were in line with her back.
We knew Brooke needed to get up off her side. We tried to make a sling to hold her upright, but it didnt work out. She did urinate while in a semi-upright position.
Three factors kept us from calling a veterinarian. 1) We have not yet established ourselves with one, 2) We have heard nothing but complaints about veterinarians in our area that they know little about goats 3) We couldnt afford to take the chance of calling a vet when we could probably do just as well or better, on our own. Ideally, I would have 1) preferred to have had ourselves established with a knowledgeable veterinarian, so we could have called for advice and access to prescription medication 2) had the money to be able to afford the vet.
4:30pm: I stayed outside with Brooklyn for awhile longer, but then felt like I had to get indoors and start researching the Internet to see if I could find out what was wrong with her. Just a day earlier on one of the goat lists Im on, someone had a doe down with Brookes symptoms. It was suggested that this other doe could have polio, listeriosis, tetanus, or poisoning. I decided that we would start treating with the cure for polio, which is injectible Vitamin B C three doses in a 24 hour period. It should be B1, but B1 (Thiamine) can only be obtained through your veterinarian with a prescription. We gambled by not giving Brooklyn antibiotics, because if she had listeriosis she would have gotten sicker. Another person on a list Im on had a buckling with listeriosis at the same time. She told me that they too started out with only the injections of B1, but her buckling got worse.
5:00pm: We pick up injectible B from the local feed store, syringes and Red Cell (for selenium, as our area has a deficiency). This is the B I got:
Durvet Maxi-B 1000 Injection NDC 30798-324-10.
Contents 100ml. By the way, ml are equal to cc
Each ml contains:
12.5 mg Thimaine Hydrochloride (B1)
Niacinamide 12.5mg
Pyridoxine Hydrochloride (B6) 5.0mg
d-Panthenol 5.0mg
riboflavin B2 2.0mg
cyanocobalamin (b12) 1000mcg
benzyl alcohol as a preservative
Dosage per bottle: 1 to 2 ml per 500 pounds of body weight.
[When we went for the second bottle of vitamin B, we discovered that there was a less expensive kind that did not contain B12. The feed store owner told me that horse owners would go for the B12, as that is what horses need. So when I compared the bottles, and both had 12.5mg, I figured the less expensive B would work as well.]
6:00pm: Brooke has her first injection of B complex. We had never given a shot, we had no idea how much to give, so started out with 1cc [especially since the bottle said 1-2cc for 500 pounds of animal, this was instructions for cattle, though]. Shes still lying on her side, having spasms every 5 minutes or so, front legs peddling, back legs stretching way out parallel to her back.
6:30pm: We decided to bring Brooklyn into the house, because the temperatures were going down into the 40s, and so we could keep a close watch on her. We put her in our dining room. We brought in a piece of linoleum, then put a blanket over that.
We decide to carry her inside, no small feat, as she is a big doe. The last tape measurement estimate for weight was 170#. We found out that she actually needed a *lot* more of the injectible B, since it was primarily a deficiency in B1. The B complex Id gotten only had 12.5mg of B1. But we were still leary of giving the shots, giving too much (knowing that B is water soluble didnt seem to help much with the worry). Check Saanendoah for information on the correct dosage.
Once she got inside, after lying on her side for 15-20 minutes, she lurched herself up into an upright position onto her chest. Her front legs were propped straight out in front of her, with her back legs curled up near her body. This was a definite improvement, with only 1cc of B complex (12.5mg B1). Her neck was still stiff and arched to the side, but much less stiff. I put a beanbag chair under her head to help her hold it up since it kept slowly moving down, then shed lurch it up again.
8:00pm: Brooke is bleating out every few minutes, (a painful sounding bellow sort of bleat) and acts as if she wants to get up. She has begun to grind her teeth, (this indicates stomach problems) she is keeping her head upright now with her eyes closed, she is obviously blind. Her pupils do not react to light. Weve learned that she needs much more B (from 12cc to 64cc depending on whos giving the recommendations). We gave her 3cc. At this time we didnt know that the needle disconnected from the syringe, and were reluctant to poke her again right away, even though I knew she was going to need much more B. After the 3cc, she lugged herself onto her feet, but was very weak and swaying back and forth. She almost tipped over onto her head at one point, and soon laid down again (practically falling down). I also have given her a dose of probios. Her neck is no longer stiff at all.
10:00pm: We decided to give Brooke another 3cc of B. I was extremely confused about how much to give 1) it should have been only B1 2) I was getting estimates of giving 12cc of B Complex but only if it was fortified all the way up to 64cc. The bottle Id purchased only had 100cc, and was $8.25. Unfortunately, we dont have a lot of money so I was panicked at the thought of having to give 64cc three times a day for days! I guess all the advice was confusing me more than helping. But at least we were seeing improvement, even though our doses were not the recommended. I gave Brooke another dose of probios. [Later I learned that it is only necessary to give probios 1X in a 24 hour period. I was giving it to her because I was afraid of her rumen shutting down, and hoped the probios would keep it going to some extent.]
I got advice to give ginger mixed with 10 ccs warm water as an oral drench just in case it is poisoning as this works on the toxins. I had fresh ginger root on hand and made a tea of it. [2 cups of water and 5-6 thin slices of ginger brought to a boil, and steeped for 15 minutes). We were forcing liquids -- water with a bit of molasses and salt mixed in (for an electrolyte effect). We were using a mustard bottle, putting the nozzle into the side of her mouth, holding her head up and squeezing it into her mouth. It helped to hold a towel under her mouth to catch the drips.
After the 3cc, she again stood to her feet. She is still grinding her teeth, her sides are sunken way in.
DAY 2 Friday, November 21, 2003
7am: 6cc of B complex. I've been up with Brooklyn on and off, all night long. I couldn't sleep but a few minutes at a time. Every time I get up to check on her, she's moved to another spot. She seems to be staying on her feet and slowly walking. Normal goat berries this morning, but she hasn't urinated since yesterday afternoon. Brooke's vision is definitely compromised. She acts as if she is blind, but she does have light perception now. Her pupils react correctly to a beam of light.
8am: We thought Brooke might want to go out onto the porch, she seemed to be interested in the open doorway, but it is still too cold for her. She began shivering, so I made her come back inside.
9am: Brooke finally laid down once we brought her back inside. She was on her feet from 10pm last night. She felt cold to the touch (still had not located or been able to leave to buy a thermometer!) so I put a comforter blanket into the dryer and heated it up, then draped it over her. I gave her another dose of probios.
11:30am: Since she hadn't urinated in such a long time, we realized that we needed to start forcing more fluids, so we got 2 cups of water with molasses and Nutri-drench into her with the squirt bottle. I'm extremely worried about her rumen shutting down, since she hasn't eaten in such a long time. I've been offering her grass hay every hour or so, (she normally eats alfalfa) but she is not at all interested in it. I even offered her a baby carrot, which she usually loves, but no luck.
12:30pm: I remembered reading on a list about how if your goat's rumen is shutting down, you can sometimes help by stealing a cud from another (healthy) goat and give it to your sick goat. So we went out to the goats... we've figured out how to get the goats to hawk up a cud. If you rub gently on their neck, from their chest to their throat, scratching and rubbing, they like that, and eventually get starry-eyed and hawk up a cud. Our youngest doe, Lightning, urped up a cud, and I tried to get it, but she swallowed it right away. I waited for a few minutes, then tried again. I got a chunk of her cud, about the size of a peach pit. Lightning was NOT happy about this. ;-) We went back inside, and I tried to put the cud into Brooke's cheek... she didn't like the "ABC" cud anymore than Lightning liked having it stolen from her. Brooklyn spit it out, but I put it back into her mouth on her tongue, and just held it in her mouth for a couple of minutes. Brooklyn had been lying down since 9am, but stood up while I was trying to give her the cud. She still hasn't urinated.
2pm: More ginger tea with baking soda. (About 1/8 cup tea, 1/8 cup water, 1/2 teaspoon baking soda). We forced 2 more cups of water into her, with molasses and Nutri-drench. Finally, I realized that we need to get her most favorite foods to entice her to eat. There is one kind of tree on our property (we only have two of this certain type) and the goats really love them. So I went and cut a branch for her. She was interested! But she wasn't chewing off the leaves and twigs herself, she was just licking and nibbling gently on the branch, so I took bite-sized pieces off for her. She finally ate! She ate about twenty little bunches. I then gave her more probios. She pooped again, normal berries.
2:15pm: She finally urinated! Quite a bit, at least two to three cups, dark yellow. I attributed the color and strength to not getting enough fluids, plus an excess of B vitamins always color the urine bright yellow. We caught much of it in a bowl we had for just that purpose. Now the next improvement we're looking for is to see her chew her cud. She is also nibbling on grass hay, and finally drank water on her own.
3pm: 6cc B complex
3:15pm: We decided Brooke would benefit from some sunshine, and guided her out onto the porch. We thought it might also be beneficial for her to have a visit from her herdmates, so we brought our other two does up onto the porch for visitation.
8:00pm: Brooke is lying down in the hallway, we observed her hawk up a cud and chew it, three times. This is very good! She is still visually impaired.
11pm: 12cc B complex. Earlier today I finally bought a syringe that holds more than 3cc! So I was able to give her the full 12cc's that was recommended on the Saanendoah site.
DAY 3 Saturday, November 22, 2003
7am: 12 cc B complex. Brooke is still not drinking on her own, or eating without our enticing her with her favorite foods. So we're pushing fluids orally, and giving her favorite tree leaves. We also gave her some chapparel twigs, she ate just a couple of those, her favorite tree, and sunflower seeds. We will continue to force fluids today every couple hours.
3pm: 12 cc B complex. We discover that Brooke loves sunflower shells (yes, the shells -- the seeds have already been removed). I took Brooke's chest measurement, it's now only 36"? That indicates weight loss of FORTY pounds?!
5pm: We decided since Brooke is walking around the house at a pretty steady pace, and bleating questioningly -- as if she was looking for her herdmates -- that we should take her outside to see how she would do in her own environment. Taking her out to her own home seemed to do Brooke a world of good. Her appetite perked up immediately, and she began hogging down alfalfa like she usually does.
Since Brooke seemed to be responding so well to her own home, we decided to set her up in a private stall in the barn and see how she would do for the night. It is not possible to leave her with her herdmates at this point, as she cannot see if they try to headbutt her. I'm really torn between having Brooke in the house one more night, since it is supposed to get down to below freezing tonight, and letting her stay in the barn. I put her sweatshirt back on.
Brooklyn in her sweatshirt, Day 3
8:30pm: 8cc B complex. We are all so exhausted and its so cold out, I dont know if we can get out to the barn at 11pm, so we decided to give her a reduced amount of B, at an earlier time. When we got into the barn, she was lying down, and seemed comfortable. She isnt shivering, and its quite a bit warmer in the sheltered part of the barn that she is in, in comparison to outside the barn, where the other goats prefer to spend the night even with the wind blowing at 20mph!
DAY 4 Sunday, November 23, 2003
7am: 12cc B complex. Brooke did very well last night. She is up and talking, but still blind/visually impaired. This private stall opens out into a private yard. We let Brooke out into this small yard so she could get some sunshine. She is eating okay, but it still doesnt seem she is drinking, or maybe just not very much. So Im continuing to force liquids into her.
3pm: 6cc B complex. Were running out of vitamin B. I didnt realize it until the feed stores were all closed today. I cut her dosage to 6cc, and this hopefully will leave enough for the next 2 doses. I work tomorrow, so I wont be home to get more until around 5pm. Brooke is eating her hay voraciously. It doesnt seem she is drinking water, so Im still pushing fluids, a cup or so at a time. But she is urinating and defecating, so she must be getting enough fluids. She is really disliking my forcing her to drink. Shes beginning to fight me. She still appears to have vision loss. I think she can see blurry shapes, but of course there is no way for me to determine that.
Brooke had one more injection of B, 6cc in the evening. We pushed/pulled her into the barn for the night.
DAY 5 Monday, November 24, 2003
We decided to give Brooke 2 daily shots of B, 12cc at each time, starting today. Shes much better. We still forced some fluids, but she is eating alfalfa voraciously. We attempted to put her in the barn tonight, but she fought mightily. After we finally got her in the barn, she pushed her way back out in the yard. I guess Brooke wants to sleep out under the stars tonight.
DAY 6 Tuesday, November 25, 2003
Two injections of B complex today. Brooklyn is eating and drinking on her own. We took off her sweatshirt today, and let her spend time with her herdmates. The youngest doe, who was number three, is trying to move up into Brookes position C #2. Brooke is having none of it, and even though she is still not seeing very well, she is trying to shove the youngest doe. Brooke is moving around her private yard much quicker, so it seems her vision has improved. But at dusk, she is still bumping into the chain link fence, so her vision isnt back completely. Were still hoping that shell recover fully. Some research Ive found says that it can take up to a week for full recovery, so we really hope to see her vision return.
DAY 7 Wednesday, November 26, 2003
Brooke is doing much better today. We can tell that she is still experiencing some vision loss, but it is obvious that her vision is returning. She is feeling well enough, and can see enough to re-establish her position on the totem pole with the younger doe. After spending a few hours with them together, we decided she would be okay to stay with her herd. Shes doing very well.
DAY 8 Thursday, November 27, 2003
I observed Brooke eating and drinking normally today. All of the goats are gingerly lapping up water I guess its too cold to take big slurps of water like they usually do. As she is still experiencing some vision loss, we are still giving the B complex injections. The information Ive gotten online says to continue until the symptoms disappear.
DAY 9 Friday, November 28, 2003
We are cutting Brooklyns dose down to 6cc twice a day. She is moving quickly around the goat yard, but it is hard to tell if she has her vision back totally. She is in with her herd, eating and drinking well. I think well give her B complex for a few more doses, and continue watching to see if she looks like she has her sight back completely. I observed her today walk up one step, across a platform, and then when she got to the down step, she seemed to be just slightly off, as if she hadnt seen the drop off.
DAY 26 December 15th, 2003
Brooklyn began aborting today. I had wondered if her ordeal would affect her pregnancy, and possibly it did. She aborted at 8 weeks.
UPDATE
February 14th, 2004
To look at Brooke today, you would *never* imagine shed been blind, and on deaths door. I am so grateful we were able to bring her back to health. We had her bred again and her new due date is June 21, 2004.
Dace
Revolution in Progress
FD, I am so sorry about your babies and all that you have on your plate right now.
You are in my thoughts and prayers
You are in my thoughts and prayers
murphysranch
Super Self-Sufficient
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FD: you and your SO and your two babies are in my thoughts all day today. I know the expense hurts, but when those darling creatures recover fully, you'll be able to see that it was worth the money worries.
