Dirty Words? GLOBAL OUTSOURCING - Also, is the world flat ?

[Nifty]

Hi Friends!

Thursday night I again found myself chatting with my friend in India. I discussed with him more about my desire to visit India. I get the feeling he's trying to not sugar coat how things are out there. This is the same guy that lived in the US for many years and knows both cultures and people very well.

He wanted to share with me a letter he received from someone from the US that went to India to live for a while. It was an amazing and eye opening read!

Here is an excerpt that applies to this discussion:

I learned more about India's peddlers; those men, women and children who wander the streets and hillsides selling just about everything from a basket they carry on their heads or on a bicycle (fish, popcorn, mangoes, bangles, flowers, incense, flutes, etc). They all have many things in common and it's fair to say their jobs are physically demanding, they're undernourished, make very little profit and have very hard lives. Typically, they are up before the sun, if lucky they may have some tea and a bun, but otherwise just one meal a day and rarely any protein. Their jobs involve a lot of travel (usually walking 15 miles a day), carrying a lot of weight (half their own), and long hours. If it's the wrong season, there's no money, and when tea prices are bad like they have been or if it rains, they make very little money. What's even crazier is that people try to bargain with them. In all, their profit is not even $1.50 a day. So their entire focus is to make enough money to survive so they can get up the next day and do it again. There are no other options and little time for relaxation and enjoyment except conversation, laughter and play with family and friends. These are people who have tremendous courage.

I don't know about you guys, but I read this and my heart sinks. One of her last statements was very enlightening and helped me put things into perspective:

Poverty: The way India lives is the way the majority of people in the world live. It is Americans who are peculiar.

To be clear, I don't want to bring the US down, I want to pull the others up! Until I win the lottery or until Sergey, Larry, and Bill Gates decide to invest in BYC I'll continue to find ways to find mutually beneficial relationships while outsourcing.

 

[patandchickens]

Poverty: The way India lives is the way the majority of people in the world live. It is Americans who are peculiar.

Great posts, Rob.

One thing I was considering commenting earlier in the discussion, but didn't, but will now , is that industrialized Western countries have a kinda "funny" idea of this having-a-job business. For most people in the world, their job is to enable themselves and their families to survive from this year to the next. That is the full and total job description.

The job of staying alive from year to year (or day to day) generally involves a *combination* of agriculture, scrounging, making things yourself, and selling/trading things to others, but it is the whole deal and if one part of it isn't working out so well right now (e.g. you peddle mangos but it's a terrible year for the mango crop, or you work in the local factory but the factory just closed) then you find a way to make up the difference through other efforts. You don't get all picky about sticking with some chosen career if it's not currently economically-supportable; you don't get all classist or squeamish about unpleasant jobs or very hard work long hours; and if you have to move elsewhere to work for a while or to live permanently, you move, no matter how much you don't like it. And you go on as best possible.

This is rather different from the North American/European concept of your job is a paid employment in which you earn money to make the other things just sort of 'automatically' happen, through the efforts of other people in their own paid employments.

So, while the modern Western concept of "your job" is what most people 'round here are used to, and as long as sufficient paid employment is available to you it can certainly work just fine, I would point out it is sort of a 'special case' and does not really match how most humans on this planet live.

And we are merely LUCKY in getting to live like we do, not somehow more special or more deserving to have it be this way or to have it continue. It seems to me we should enjoy the sunny day while it lasts, but you can't complain TOO much when it starts to rain eventually, since most people have been gettin' rained on more or less continually for generations immemorial.

Pat

 

[me&thegals]

Well said, Pat! I often think of the quote, "There, but for the grace of God, go I." It could so easily be us, but for many reasons it is not. I feel for the struggles of ANY human being, including my neighbors, family and friends. It's just that for most Americans our struggles are not quite so close a draw between life and death as they are in other parts of the world.

 

[poppycat]

This thread is really interesting. I'm a little wishy-washy on what I think about globalization. It's pretty hard say "I love it" or "I hate it" without generalizing which is impossible given the complexities of the global marketplace.

I also know that my view of globalization is colored by my American upbringing and experiences, so I sometimes question it's validity.

For example: you could generalize and say that people overseas are doing jobs for far less money than the same job would cost in America, therefore the job should go overseas, because Americans have gotten to the point that they expect too much as far as pay and standard of living.

If you are talking about something like a call center where customer service calls are answered in India, it's a good generalization. The company using the call center is getting a good price on a service, and the people who work in the call center are earning good money that was previously unavailable in their country. I'd say it's a win-win.

However, if you are looking at the used electronics trade, it's a whole different scenario. Used electronic components are shipped from the US to poorer countries who recover metals and circuit components using methods that severely environmentally degrading and dangerous to the worker, thus illegal in the US. Cheaper in money, yes, but other costs don't get quantified. I'd say this is the "bad" part of globalization.

But who am I to say? The people who "process" used electronics are only doing a job to feed their family. If I lived in that situation, I'd probably do the same, environment be damned. You can only care about the environment after your basic needs have been met.

And as the standard of living in countries like India rise, so will the salaries needed to support the standards of living. So the call center that's a great deal now may not be forever.

I think it is always a good idea to broaden your horizons and see how other people live. I've certainly had my priorities changed by other cultures both in and outside of the US. I also know people who went overseas and their American altruistic intentions clashed pretty hard with a culture that has grown out of people just barely getting by.

Like I said wishy-washy.

 

[me&thegals]

Thanks for bringing several points of view to this complex discussion

 

[Nifty]

And we are merely LUCKY in getting to live like we do

My friend in India has said that many times. I think about how lucky I am that I was born where I was, to whom I was, and when I was (I really needed to be alive during the time of spell check!)

However, if you are looking at the used electronics trade, it's a whole different scenario. Used electronic components are shipped from the US to poorer countries who recover metals and circuit components using methods that severely environmentally degrading and dangerous to the worker, thus illegal in the US. Cheaper in money, yes, but other costs don't get quantified. I'd say this is the "bad" part of globalization.

Great point... this is something I think about often and posted here: http://www.sufficientself.com/forum/viewtopic.php?pid=1989#p1989

And poppycat, I think you are spot on... it is a very complex problem / issue (which makes it a terribly interesting discussion!)

 

[Woodland Woman]

Even when I was a small child, I realized I was fortunate to have been born in The United States of America. This country was founded on Christian principles. Can it be that we are blessed by God? We are not a perfect nation but we do give aid, support, and protection to other nations. If we were not the country we are, would we be able to help others? There is a lot of corruption in a lot of other nations. I'm not saying it doesn't exist here to a degree but it is a way of life in some countries. I think in our enthusiasm to raise the standard of living in 3rd world nations we don't shoot ourselves in the foot. I think most people on this message board are here because we have a desire to be self sufficient. I also believe communities should strive to be self sufficient as should nations. What would happen if the world economy collasped ? We would be in no position to help others let alone help ourselves. As I see businesses close around me and neighbors lose jobs I feel I should have supported my community more than always going for the better deal. Sometimes the "better deal" has a greater cost.

 

[patandchickens]

it is a very complex problem / issue (which makes it a terribly interesting discussion!)

If you want another layer of complexity, consider the issue of transporting materials all 'round the world.

Sure, some outsourcing does not involve this, or only to a miniscule degree (e.g. Bombay seems to have become a global hotspot for North American customer-service call centers ).

But an awful lot does, either in the sense of buying raw materials from far away, or in the sense of using domestic/local raw materials that are then shipped halfway around the planet to be processed or assembled, then shipped back to be sold. One can ponder this in terms of petrochemicals etc used for transportation, as compared to if the same items were made closer to home.

I agree. Complex. I'm sticking with my original "I dunno" answer <g>

Pat

 

[poppycat]

If you want another layer of complexity, consider the issue of transporting materials all 'round the world.

No kidding. We're definitely seeing a case of "what comes around goes around" as far as products that we are re-importing containing contaminants that aren't good for anyone.


So Nifty, what do you think about the globalization of food? (A whole other can of worms, but this thread begs the question.)

 

[Nifty]

So Nifty, what do you think about the globalization of food?

I haven't thought much about it, but it is an interesting discussion. Makes sense to me because some places are going to grow things better and be able to grow during different times of the year than other places. I'm not a fan of the whole tainted food thing, so there needs to always be more money spent on inspections of food and factories.

One think I heard was that more than half of imported apple juice concentrate comes from China... pretty interesting.