How do a person's political views relate to self sufficiency?

[On Our own]

OMG I can't believe that Clowen-Pliven thing is still alive.

Has anyone on here ever actually read anything directly by them??

They wrote a book called the New Class War in the early 80s outlining the tactics that they saw the Reagan administration doing to destroy the middle class and weaken any labor movement.

Clowen and Pliven wrote an article outlining what it was that they saw being done taken to its illogical extreme. It was a warning NOT A PLAN!

The biggest argument on here seems to be an issue of freedom. The problem is you're not talking about the same freedom and some believe one type cannot survive with the other and others believe one type cannot survive without the other.

Let me see if I can make it clearer: The first freedom is to : as in freedom to assemble and speak your mind and own property.

The second freedom is freedom from: as in freedom from repression or coercion or abuse.

Some people believe that any movement on the part of the governing body (whatever it is) to protect any one group from any other group becomes repression. These people believe that government is the seat of all problems.

Others believe that without some governance, some people would abuse others, and what resources are available to all, and this would create repression. These people generally think greed and the power elite are the root of all problems.

It is simply not possible to allow the kind of freedom some people claim as their right. Even when it was written above the person said freedom to do what you want as long as it doesn't effect others.

Everything effects others. I want the government to leave me alone, but I expect it to protect me from robbers and killers. That expectation creates the requirement for government to interfere in the rights of those who wish to kill and rape to do so.

This should not be seen as an either or proposition.
The key should not be in fighting over which freedom we're talking about so much as in recognizing that BOTH are types of freedom which people deserve. And as with all things, moderation is the key.

 

[bibliophile birds]

Everything effects others. I want the government to leave me alone, but I expect it to protect me from robbers and killers. That expectation creates the requirement for government to interfere in the rights of those who wish to kill and rape to do so.

This should not be seen as an either or proposition.
The key should not be in fighting over which freedom we're talking about so much as in recognizing that BOTH are types of freedom which people deserve. And as with all things, moderation is the key.

this is a very good, and succinct, point. it so hard to do in actual practice, but it's very important that we at least acknowledge it.

 

[papas34]

Why is it if a conservative mentions Zars or executive orders liberals start blabbing off about past presidents as if we like what they did???

However; I have not seen anything like what we have today and it does scare me.

If we loose control of the government and they turn to tyranny, we could find ourselves in a very unpleasant place as the government would have to use stronger force on Liberty loving Americans than other governments needed to use on their people who were less used to freedoms than we are!!!! just my two cents worth!!

 

[Big Daddy]

[Why is it if a conservative mentions Zars or executive orders liberals start blabbing off about past presidents as if we like what they did???

However; I have not seen anything like what we have today and it does scare me.]

Are you referring to Czars? The Czars were not communist. Communism came in after Czar Nicholas II was overthrown during the revolution.

At any rate I still want to know what it is you are seeing today that frightens you.

 

[bibliophile birds]

here's a good story that will maybe tie some of these things together:

there was a Danish group who raised a ton of money in order to help "poor" rice farmers in Madagascar. they invested a large chunk of this money into some new rice seed that was supposed to make life much easier for these farmers and vastly increase their yields. they also thought that by making life easier for these people they would be able to teach them all about family planning- apparently if you are doing better economically you should want fewer children. so they marched off to Madagascar, certain in their ability to make a world of difference.

when they got to Madagascar, they gathered the menfolk together and gave these wonderful presentations about the new rice seed. they then gave out bags of seed to all the men who had rice paddies and sent them on their way, certain that they had just made a world of difference.

they then called all the womenfolk together and told them all about their reproductive rights and about contraception and family planning. they gave out tons of condoms and sent them on their way, certain that they had just made a world of difference.

these Danish philanthropists returned the following year to see how much they had improved the lives of these poor rice farmers. what they found shocked them. no one had planted the new rice seeds and no one was using their birth control. they couldn't believe how unsuccessful they had been. when they finally asked some Anthropologists that were working in the area, they got their answer: in this part of Madagascar, the women are in charge of the crops and the men are in charge of the family. the Danish philanthropists had never stopped to question their preconceived notions of these people.

groups and governments make all kinds of uninformed decisions that end up being wasteful and useless. like government inspections of food production: we apparently aren't smart enough to decide for ourselves. the government, backed by Big Agribusiness, needs to protect us from eating bad food. which means that independent growers are penalized- like someone said, we can't give food we've grown to neighbors because we might kill them. the problem is that we are, usually, pretty knowledgeable about our own needs. if i go to buy meat from a local farmer and his animals look like death walking, i'm not going to buy his meat. but i can't personally inspect Tyson's processing plants. i have to take their word for it. and then we end up eating tomatoes that are swimming in e coli.

now, if those Danish philanthropists wanted to make a difference, they should have talked to the rice farmers and seen what would actually have made life better for them. maybe they needed some new water buffalo instead of fancy new rice. maybe individuals and small scale farmers need to be trusted rather than protected. on sale days, i've got about 50 inspectors on my farm. they do a really good job too, since it's their families that are going to be eating my chickens. how many corporations can say that? if the people in power (ie government officials) have an interest in Big Agribusiness, they are unlikely to ask me what i need. but if the people in power are interested in the welfare of the people, then they are more likely to support me. it'll never be cut and dry, but it's a start anyway.

 

[Quail_Antwerp]

May I ask why do we even need to have this discussion?

I don't mean to be rude, I know ya'll wanted to keep this polite, etc., but to be completely honest, I've been wanting to avoid this site completely lately (even without the power outtage) because I am so tired and SICK of all the political threads and comparisons between conservatives and liberals, etc.

Literally. Every time I come on here, it's all I can do to stay on the site. I feel physically ill and want to vomit everytime a new thread referencing politics pops up.

I'm scared enough about the way our government is going, and I come on here to share and talk about living an SS lifestyle. I know we've had both political and religious threads here, and sometimes they go well sometimes they don't, but I'm sick of them.

I'd rather read through a bunch of difference in religions threads than see one more political thread pop up.

Could we please, maybe even for just ONE week (heck, I'll take one day if possible!) stick to topics that directly relate to what this forum was created for??

Oh yes, I realize I could avoid this thread or that thread, etc. but when you come on here and the first thread at the top of the page is a political one or one where slurs are being slung at one another, well, it makes me just not want to participate here anymore.

It's all I can do to drag myself on here to change the POW on Sundays, and as it is, I missed last Sunday.

Please, folks, it's not an election year. Could we please take a break from the political discussions?

I'm sorry to interrupt your conversation...Ok well, really, I'm not sorry, but I've tried to keep my fingers out of it.....so now I'll bow out and let you go back to your discussion while I go find myself a brown paper bag..............

 

[farmerlor]

Oooooh, I'm up for a religion debate! Just kidding. Going back to my hole now.

 

[FarmerChick]

As much as it disturbs you Quail, others might enjoy the thread.....so it is a catch 22 in ANY forum. Not everyone will enjoy every thread.

There are a few threads I can't stand on this forum being written and chatted about, but I can't say "please shut them down cause I don't like them"----just doesn't work.

key again is don't read them if they do not interest you...that is what I do.
hard not to read them sometimes though..LOL

 

[Big Daddy]

21 pages in what 3 days. Somebody must be interested. So far everybody has been pretty civil too.

 

[On Our own]

Yeah, I find this stuff fascinating, and I love to hear what people who believe and live differently than I do have to say.

I think one of our biggest problems today is that if you're careful enough you can fine tune your choices of media so that you never have to listen to anyone with whom you disagree.

This is bad for democracy.

I read to and listen to everything I can get my hands on! I do not think that we can afford to be apathetic about politics these days.

Which is why I join BD in asking: Exactly what is it that the government is doing right now that scares you so?

I'll start: Obama extended the Patriot Act made me angry, scares me some.