Obama finally called them out

[patandchickens]

You don't see Canada going into major debt because of their healthcare.

Hummm...according this this, there is a deficit problem in Canada...

Wifezilla, the article you quote is about the *Alberta* provincial healthcare specifically. You have to understand, the Alberta provincial gov't (=oil money) has been spending like drunken sailors in the past couple decades, and with recent contractures of oil revenues the province's economy has fallen into considerable trouble since spending has not been comparably reined in. Alberta is sooooo not the whole picture.

Canada has not run a deficit budget for most of the past 15 years -- the (big!) exception being this past year as Harper's Conservatives, spooked out of a stupor by the last election results, belatedly decided to acknowledge there might be a teeny weeny recession type thingie around somewhere, and wrote a massive deficit budget. (e.t.a. - some relevant graphs at http://worthwhile.typepad.com/worthwhile_canadian_initi/2007/03/a_brief_history.html)

Canada does have nonzero national debt, like pretty much any other country, but it is a legacy from Way Back When and the budget surpluses of recent years (which includes of course much of the period since gov't healthcare was begun) have kept it well in check. It is stunningly lower than the US national debt, of course in large part b/c of differences in military action and thus military spending.

Yes, taxes are a bit higher up here, in part to pay for the healthcare system.

But you know what? People are just fine. It is not like the US populace is so prosperous and always-secure whereas Canadians are dying and starving and suffering from iPod-deprivation. So, while we are taxed a bit extra, in part for healthcare, it does not seem to be a practical PROBLEM in terms of standard of living and ability to enjoy life.

Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

It is amazing how people seem to think Canada is backwards, killing people with long waiting lines while dying in that line, and denied coverages to treat you...etc. etc.

Every system, every country is going to have problems....yet so many make Canada's system out to be a failure. Far from a failure in my eyes!

Canada is not deprived in anyway. They have it all like we do....yes, they might pay a tad more for healthcare in their taxes, but they certainly aren't improvished because of it. Canada is a great country. I have been there 3 times and have chatted with many and I see no crazy problems wtih Canada. Their people are not in "revolt" over horrible healthcare.

Canada is acknowledging its problems with their system and are working on fixing it...just like any country would do to the best of their financial abilities and other.



______

thanks Pat for answering that debt info!
Canada has not run a deficit budget for most of the past 15 years

 

[FarmerChick]

And the second part---it will not be all or nothing. they are working on a way to get everyone insured, without going to single payer system and at the same time----all those "why don't we chip away" at the problems-----well it sure hasn't worked over the last 20 years of anyone in office now has it? No move forward...stagnant. Nope, doesn't work..it's been proven to be useless....big changes are needed. And change hurts, but we grow through it.

What steps have been taken over the last 20 years to make any sort of improvement?

I'm not scared of change, change is good, but the change this administration wants to make is not in the best intrest of the entire country.

NONE--and that was my point. NO ONE has helped chip away at the small problems that COULD seem to fix a broken system. NO ONE bothered and NOW we need real change...big change....and I want that change.

So chipping away now is useless. All the little fixes that everyone NOW wants is useless. In fact, we need accessible affordable healthcare for ALL and at the same time start the little fixes also.


AAAhhh...good thing your opinion is not the only one out there..LOL

I say what the govt. wants to do is GOOD for the entire nation.

so draw on that one!

 

[enjoy the ride]

We are not so wealthy at the moment and getting less so by the minute.
I believe that what Congress will do is like this-
The ship of health care is sinking and there is one life boat. That life boat could take on some more people but there are twenty times more people in the water who are going to try to climb into the boat and will sink it when they do- taking all to the bottom.
Now what we needed to do was build more life boats when we had the chance. Too late to encourage more doctors graduating from school- no, we specialised in MBAs and lawyers. If it wasn't for immigrating doctors, we would be in absolute crisis right now.
We needed to take control of drug company costs like Canada did. But the drug company lobbiests kept that from happening and Congress is too venial to do it. We in the US subsidize drug costs for any number of other nations who do regulate this.
We needed to limit lawsuits for everything that goes wrong in life- can you imagine the money we would have if so much was not frittered away, not in judgements so much, but in paying lawyers such ungodly amounts each year for stirring up self-aggrandizing trouble. Congress is mostly lawyers as is the President and they will not be resricted.
So, although I agree that it would be lovely to have every get the health care that was best for them, that is not what is going to happen. People who have it will get less and be expected to pay more for everyone else. If Congress tries to mess with doctors, not only will the influx of foreign doctors dry up, the ones already here will go somewhere else. They are generally not here because they love us. Rationing is already occuring when you can't get into see a doctor.
So unless health care is attached to a large part on working, I am not willing to go happily into paying more for getting less while one more incentive for people to work disappears. Causing the US to have even less resources than we have now.
I don't think the Canadian system is a good model- it is in the honeymoon period and they are much better at imposing restrictions on who gets the services- they do not cover illeagal and non-residents. They are willing to restrict profits and we are not. They basically mandate that all doctors psarticipate.l The US could never get away with that- we pay for all who arrive at the door and we have traditionally worshiped the rich despite the ugliness.
We are not Canada and can never be. We are not England, France, etc and can never be. We are both much more generous and much more money-oriented. And we find ourselves in the squeeze that creates.

 

[patandchickens]

I don't think the Canadian system is a good model- it is in the honeymoon period

Since the 1960's (e.t.correct) or early 1980s' (depending how you're counting) is still 'the honeymoon period'???

You might also look at some European countries whose gov't-funded universal healthcare predates Canada's, and is in some cases apparently rather bettter run.

I found the following interesting Wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems
while I have certainly not fact-checked it or anything, I would expect that it is probably not overly skewed (and anyone ELSE is welcome to fact check if they want of course) and provides some good statistics on the subject.

Pat

 

[Blue Skys]

And the second part---it will not be all or nothing. they are working on a way to get everyone insured, without going to single payer system and at the same time----all those "why don't we chip away" at the problems-----well it sure hasn't worked over the last 20 years of anyone in office now has it? No move forward...stagnant. Nope, doesn't work..it's been proven to be useless....big changes are needed. And change hurts, but we grow through it.

What steps have been taken over the last 20 years to make any sort of improvement?

I'm not scared of change, change is good, but the change this administration wants to make is not in the best intrest of the entire country.

NONE--and that was my point. NO ONE has helped chip away at the small problems that COULD seem to fix a broken system. NO ONE bothered and NOW we need real change...big change....and I want that change.

So chipping away now is useless. All the little fixes that everyone NOW wants is useless. In fact, we need accessible affordable healthcare for ALL and at the same time start the little fixes also.


AAAhhh...good thing your opinion is not the only one out there..LOL

I say what the govt. wants to do is GOOD for the entire nation.

so draw on that one!

So which is it? Has it never been tried before, or has it been proven not to work?

Instant gratification is what y'all are looking for. What I'm looking for is change that will sustain.

 

[FarmerChick]

How can instant gratification be involved when WE (those who do and want) have been waiting over 20 years for changes in the system???

We finally got a Pres. that will make changes. Real ones that will effect people....Boo! Hey it was a long time coming! No, not instant gratification at all---merely a move forward after a long long wait! A real one. Not fake and it needs to happen.


Oh---well lets see about those small fixes that people think will work.


No--you can't prove something didn't work when it was never tried.
And most of those small fixes they keep asking about now, WILL be used in accordance with the rest of the plans on the table.

Alot of things MIGHT have helped but not one administration took healthcare any further than a person can throw a 5 ton boulder. Scared to tackle this monster...and boy is it.

Yes there will be upset and more. There will be screw ups and more...but at least we are heading in a direction of finally taking responsibility for our nation and all legal citizens who live here.

 

[FarmerChick]

I agree ETR
we will never be Canada
and they will never be us.

But we sure can learn from some of their systems.

It is a bad situation. But unless people can at least unite with their own citizens for all our well being...what good is a nation? If a nation can't help you...why be part of it? Just to help some? Just those who have cash? A nation should not be scared to tackle monster problems where their citizens are dying and the country is stagnant.

And I know we all agree on most...just the steps to get there

 

[FarmerChick]

I don't think the Canadian system is a good model- it is in the honeymoon period

Since the 1960's (e.t.correct) or early 1980s' (depending how you're counting) is still 'the honeymoon period'???

You might also look at some European countries whose gov't-funded universal healthcare predates Canada's, and is in some cases apparently rather bettter run.

I found the following interesting Wikipedia article
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_Canadian_and_American_health_care_systems
while I have certainly not fact-checked it or anything, I would expect that it is probably not overly skewed (and anyone ELSE is welcome to fact check if they want of course) and provides some good statistics on the subject.

Pat

very interesting Pat
alot of good info
thanks

I liked this one:
Through all entities in its public-private system, the U.S. spends more per capita than any other nation in the world, but is the only wealthy industrialized country in the world that lacks some form of universal health care.





Oh yea we Bad!
THE ONLY ONE

 

[Wifezilla]

We finally got a Pres. that will make changes. Real ones that will effect people

Ohhhh we are going to be effected all right