Seriously, this helps how??

[farmerlor]

It's called war, and prisoners of war are not US citizens deserving of any constitutional rights. I don't want to hear a word about us torturing. Do those people still have their heads? Were their wives and daughters raped and killed in front of them? Are there eyes still in their attached heads? That's torture. Scaring someone by pretending to pour water down their throats is awful, but they live through it just fine, with no permanent scars. Raping a wife in front of a husband while demanding he talk is torture, and it's done all the time in third world countries. If one American military person's life is saved because of waterboarding, or keeping them awake, or playing loud rock music to them then I'm just fine with it. Sorry, I know that horrifies some of you, but it's the way it is.

You may not want to hear a word about torture but some of the people who were tortured and who have or are going to be receiving compensation for said torture were innocent. And there's no proof that this torture (yes, I'll keep right on using that word, thank you) ever saved one life. Don't you think with as much press as they got from torturing prisoners that if they'd actually gotten any information that had helped they would have shouted it from the nearest mountain? For that matter I've never heard about one piece of information that they got from their illegal wire tapping either. And I do happen to think that starving, destroying sacred books, and sexually manipulating people is torture as WELL as being kept awake and water boarding.

 

[dacjohns]

If you don't like a thread, then please don't open it. This isn't BYC, we're all supposed to be adults discussing issues that interest us.

You're correct but there are a few people on this thread and others that are not willing or able to discuss things like adults and continue to push their partisan agendas. They will listen or accept what others have to say.

If there was a way to have threads disappear from my list of topics I would but when you post on a thread it appears on your list and just asks to be opened.



I spent over 20 years serving this country. I consider myself a conservative but I am ashamed at what this nation has done in the name of defense.

Waterboarding is torture no matter how you try to sugar coat. What was done at Abu Ghraib was torture. I have no doubt that the CIA uses torture.

The Patriot Act took away many of our rights and freedoms.

Yes, you are right. If I don't like a thread then I shouldn't open it. I spent all those years so people can enjoy their rights so I guess I should shut up and let them do so.

 

[andehens]

I'm in my 40's, but wasn't paying much attention to the world before about 1990. I rememer how my parents reacted to the economy in the 70's - we had a humongous vegetable garden, bought bulk meat locally, got a wood stove, and went out on special trips to fill up the gas tank when it was our day to do it. But I don't remember if we were so politically divided in the 70's and 80's. What was it like in the 50's and 60's? How prevalent was the Vietnam protest? You would see it on tv, but was it affecting everyday lives? Or do these things come in waves?

inchworm I was a teen in the 60's, I saw the protests on TV just like you do now, they did not change everyday life. The only thing every day about the hippies were parents that didn't like long hair. Kennedy was the first Catholic president, people adapted quickly. I remember hearing the first of the enviro people and thinking uh oh and wondering who was at the top. Gas shortages, and 2 recessions, but I remember nothing dividing the country like its divided now.

 

[reinbeau]

Dac, I think we're mainly agreeing to disagree. Healthy debate is good, whether or not there are any admissions, both sides can learn.

 

[Big Daddy]

All I was stating was that Obama has instituted change. Some on this line may not like his change. He said in his speeches and the debates what he was going to do. The majority voted for him ( No wacko voting machines this time. No black people being sent to the wrong voting locations). He won by a significant margin. Now he is doing what the majority elected him to do.

There's no doubt a lot of the prisoners at Gitmo are terrorists. The US offered significant rewards to Iraqi citizens to turn in people for possible terrorists activities. So I'm also sure there are some innocent people in there too. Maybe when the insurgents cut off those peoples heads on TV they were thinking (If sawing this guys head off on TV saves just one Iraqi life it will be worth it). Maybe they thought that too. The US is supposed to be above that. I was only in the military for 4 years, but we were taught that torture was not tolerated. The US was at a low point in history for a while. We will become a leader again.

 

[VT-Chicklit]

dacjohns wrote: I spent over 20 years serving this country. I consider myself a conservative but I am ashamed at what this nation has done in the name of defense.

dac, I want to thank you whole heartedly for your service to our country. I feel that those who serve are all heros. Thank You



I feel our country, and also the world, are at a cross roads and the decisions that are made now will effect the relationship between us all for the next hundred years (or more). I first want to state that I am not a Republican or Democrat, I am conservative in my beliefs and actions and I try to live a moral life (as best as I can).

I see many things happening in recient times that do not pass my smell test on morality. I have been aware of the politics of our nation for many years. I am in my 50s and started being consious of the decisions that were being made by our government back in the 80s, under Reagan. I have watched the morals of our government officials slip further away from what I feel are acceptable in a public official and what is expected constitutionally. They have no problem commiting adultary in the oval office, they have no problem conducting a war by sending many contracts for the support functions to the companies of cronies, I saw one president basically ignore attacks on US interests and military assets over seas and at home which lead to the 9-11 attack on our twin towers. The next president went to war over those 9-11 attack on our homeland. Unfortunately, he didn't place the majority of our military attention on those who attacked us! He decided to nation build instead. What a waste! I have seen Congressmen and Senators from BOTH sides of the aisle embroiled in sex scandles, tax scandles, vote selling, pay to play and more yet very little, if anything is done. We currently have several Senators and Congressmen under scrutany for tax issues and unfairly benifiting from their position from those that they are regulating. Our current mess can be laid at the doorstep of the Congress and the laws that they have passed and the lack of oversight afterward. There will always be those that will be greedy in business and there needs to be some regulation and oversight to keep that greed from hurting the general population. The greed has now infested our Congress and other areas of the government. We now have a situation where the foxes are now watching the hen house.

I am not willing to cut Obama any slack either. I know that he has been in office only a little over 50 days but anyone that has been able to spend that much money and break that many promises in that short a time will not get a pass from me. He has put more foxes in charge of the hen house by placing Geitner in charge of the Fed and allowing many lobbiests in his administration. During the campaign, he said that lobbiests would not be allowed to hold positions in his administration yet now he feels that a special dispensation is all that is needed to erase their lobbying pasts. He has submitted the names of several tax cheats to key positions within his administration. Thank heavens most of them removed their names from review, once the scrutiny was on them. If only Geitner had done the same. Congress has given out billions and trillions of dollars without ever reading the bills. When We, The People, get irate about some of this money being given as bonuses to those who have gotten our economy in such a mess, some in Congress and the Administration start pointing the finger at each other to deflect blame. Congress then enacts a law to tax, Ex pos Facto the money back into the US coffers. This is not legal either.

I am not partisan, I am fed up with the lot of them! It is time for all of them to go back under the rock that they crawled out from under and STOP TRAMPLEING THE CONSTITUTION! We, the People need to not take sides, but to see that both sides are part of the same coin and that coin is counterfit.

Edited for punctuation, thought, and grammar

 

[reinbeau]

All I was stating was that Obama has instituted change. Some on this line may not like his change. He said in his speeches and the debates what he was going to do. The majority voted for him ( No wacko voting machines this time. No black people being sent to the wrong voting locations). He won by a significant margin. Now he is doing what the majority elected him to do.

There's no doubt a lot of the prisoners at Gitmo are terrorists. The US offered significant rewards to Iraqi citizens to turn in people for possible terrorists activities. So I'm also sure there are some innocent people in there too. Maybe when the insurgents cut off those peoples heads on TV they were thinking (If sawing this guys head off on TV saves just one Iraqi life it will be worth it). Maybe they thought that too. The US is supposed to be above that. I was only in the military for 4 years, but we were taught that torture was not tolerated. The US was at a low point in history for a while. We will become a leader again.

Are you actually drawing an equivalence between sawing off someone's head and scaring them? You truly amaze me. I give up.

 

[Quail_Antwerp]

 

[Big Daddy]

WWJD? I'm not a Christian but Bushes concept of Christianity is a lot different than what I understand Christianity to be. We have always treated our POW's better than other people. That's because we have always portrayed ourselves to be better than them and hold a higher moral ground. How can we criticize other nations like China for their human rights violations if we torture people? Have we really sunk that low?

 

[dacjohns]

We have always treated our POW's better than other people. That's because we have always portrayed ourselves to be better than them and hold a higher moral ground. How can we criticize other nations like China for their human rights violations if we torture people? Have we really sunk that low?

I actually agree with Big Daddy on something.