What do you know about ADD?

[patandchickens]

Geez, me&thegals, you've just described MY childhood. Almost to a T, me and my sister both

Of course we had specific routines for getting up and going to bed and things like that (out of bed at 6:05, breakfast table at 6:20, clothes laid out the night before, etc), is that really *unusual*? We did not have homework til grade 3 but I was a big one for 'forgetting' assignments or just sitting there not doing them, and yes, mom made sure I tackled one task or portion thereof at a time, and sometimes used a timer or a natural incentive like 'if you're done by the time dad gets home he will let you practice fly-casting in the backyard'.

Ha, do you know I was almost made to repeat 2nd grade b/c the teacher was convinced I was stupid. I wasn't, I just wasn';t interested in what she was saying or trying to get us to do My 3rd grade teacher believed I could not read well b/c I was always lost when we'd sit in a circle and take turns reading aloud. What can I say, it was boring, I didn't pay attention, I had no idea where we were when my turn came I also got terrible grades in math until about 7th grade because it was much more appealing to hide a book under the edge of the desk and *read* during that part of the school day, and the times tables never really interested me.

I ended up a researcher/professor in a fairly-mathematical part of biology (although still don't have a really champion work-ethic for things I don't want to do and think are stupid or are merely less interesting than what I'd prefer to do or think about)... so, you know, I can't complain

I know there are 7 and 10 yr olds who are very goal-oriented (and remember, a large percentage of kids these days have been through daycare, which *teaches* them organization in a lot of ways)... but there are a lot who just aren't at that age. In fact, what you describe is all stuff we have to do in THIS household, my 50-yr-old husband included Without it, chaos would descend. And honestly I do not think we are all ADD/ADHD

My sister used to have MAJOR shrieking wailing hours-long nervous breakdowns over homework. (I, on the other hand, tended more towards the just sitting there thinking of other things ). Mom decided that her learning the material was more important than battling over the homework, so she focused on helping my sister learn to do the <whatever>, and then if the homework happened it happened and if it didn't it didn't. Mind, my sister is pretty competitive about grades so once it dawned on her that handing in incomplete assignments was dragging her grades down she got a lot more cooperative about working with Mom to figure out strategies that worked... it might be harder if a kid does not care about grades. I should ask her next time I talk with her on the phone what she would recommend re: homework meltdowns, tho. (She eventually got into Penn State on a full academic scholarship and then into Princeton for grad school, so it obviously did not hold her back unduly in the long run )

Yeah, sometimes "it hits the fan" when circumstances can't accommodate the kids so well, but is that not just a basic feature of childhood (also sometimes adulthood )?

I don't know... I am not trying to minimize your concerns, and if you think there is something 'wrong' then maybe there is and certainly you should look into it... but honestly as far as what you've *written* it just sounds like well within the normal variation of kids to me. Frustrating and inconvenient at times, but, isn't that sort of a normal part of childhood?

Good luck,

Pat

 

[me&thegals]

I can tell you what the medical profession has to say about it and I can tell you my own experiences with it.

I agree with so many things that have been stated on this thread. Nutritional changes really helped my youngest in so many ways. The timer came in real handy when he was young but that didn't matter much as a teen.

I can just picture this with an 11th grader!

I also feel some folks are just LIKE that. I was and am. Back in the old days, we learned coping mechanisms because school was a very structured place. That is not the case anymore and constant distractions are going on at all times in the classrooms. Kind of makes it hard for an ADD child to learn to prioritize, pay attention, use time wisely.

I wonder, too. I remember using time very badly as a child, being very distracted and daydreamy. I still did great in school. These days, I use lots of lists, get very organized, try to keep things managed well. ADD or just a brain that enjoys thinking about other things?

ADD meds don't seem to help a lot of kids but I've heard some positive reports.....no good news about long term usage though. Just like any of those kind of drugs, you have to use more over time to get the same effect and sometimes have to switch them up to get a good effect.

I can't imagine a situation under which I would want to go for drugs, unless for some reason it got really, really bad with my son. Still.

I have found that my ADD children can pay attention for literally hours to things THEY like to do, watch, read. So, sometimes this seems like a personality trait and they have selective attention spans.

This is a tough one for me to grapple with, too. Is this just normal kid/human stuff? My reading so far suggests that everybody can focus on the interesting stuff, but distractability and focus become an issue when the material is very detailed, boring, difficult.

I think a combination of nutritional monitoring, structured routines, and learned coping mechanisms are more helpful than the quick fix pill solution.

I really agree. I don't know what to do about the home-school connection, though. What do you do when the homework doesn't even make it home? I want him to understand consequences, but this child could miss most recesses this year. School is also about getting outside, playing hard and making friends. The home situations we already deal with. Hmmm.. Any suggestions, anyone, for the home-school stuff?

I also feel that ADD does not necessarily equal BRAT. I have good, sweet kids....but a couple of them have definite ADD attributes. If I hadn't been extremely firm over these years about certain behaviors, then I would probably have some real brats on my hands.

Thank you for this! I've been telling my family for quite a while now that they simply don't listen. They don't follow through. It really looks like disobedience, but if you watch it very closely you start to see constant distractability. I have no sense of my kids being defiant or rebellious (well, not usually!). This really seems to be something else.

 

[me&thegals]

Well, geez, Pat. Holy cow--you just threw me right back over the fence again to "ADD Doesn't Exist Land!"

This is why I am asking. I just don't know. I have assumed for most of my kids' lives that they are perfectly normal and good parenting can be sheer drudgery some days.

Then, I start hearing from teachers in each grade that they are very, very distractible. Nobody's talking ADD or drugs. They're just talking about behavior.

Then, I start reading about ADD on my own and everything seems to fit. But, if this is the stuff that everybody's--or many people's--kids are doing, I'm right back to trying to find parenting strategies to deal with it. Or maybe just talking myself into more patience and tolerance for dealing with it for life--that maybe they won't outgrow it in the next 3 months.

And, Pat, to tell you the truth I have also wondered about what you allude to in your post--Could it just be really boring? Some of the stuff my son did in kindergarten would have bored me to tears. They've been home with me since day 1 and every day has been a learning experience. I LOVE learning new things, and I think I've given them that enthusiasm. Most of our learning is of the "Oh, awesome! Look at that bird" variety, and then we go look it up, figure out its name, habits, habitat, etc. Real-life, spontaneous learning. Could it just be that school bores my kids? Could it be that having no TV, video games or other stuff like that, they have simply never learned to filter out other distractions? Could it be that my son's notoriously difficult classmates would be quite distracting to ANYbody? Could it be that he is simply lazy about doing things that seem pointless (like your sister ) and I will just have to deal with the stress of forcing him through it anyway?

Thanks for your posts! I don't want to be talked INTO or OUT OF this. I just want to hear all sorts of perspectives, and I really appreciate all of them.

ETA: I used ADD/ADHD in the title for simplicity's sake. It seemed easier than listing behaviors and talking about those.

Perhaps I will just come to the conclusion that our kids are fascinated by everything in life, not just the task I have asked them to complete or the homework their teacher assigns them. Wouldn't that be a nice perspective? My kids are so amazingly brilliant that EVERYthing is a learning experience for them

 

[patandchickens]

Well, geez, Pat. Holy cow--you just threw me right back over the fence again to "ADD Doesn't Exist Land!"

Now, you know that wasn't my point and I am not saying there are not a number of kids with Actual Physical Issues that cause problems above and beyond the normal bumps-and-wiggles in the road through childhood All I was saying is that, from what you *write*, doesn't sound at all unusual to me and truly does sound just like me and my sister, both of whom turned out normal and functional.

if this is the stuff that everybody's--or many people's--kids are doing, I'm right back to trying to find parenting strategies to deal with it.

Well, you know, unless you were intending to (now) pursue pharmaceutical approaches, I am not sure how much of a *difference* it makes whether you conceptualize it as "just distractable kids who need to learn to focus" or as "maybe mild ADD/ADHD". I mean, either way you would be looking for a wider selection of methods to try in order to help them learn to pay more attention to things, yes? Even if they're not ADD there is nothing wrong with sampling some of the behavioral techniques that sometimes *work* for ADD; and even if they *are* in reality ADD, there is nothing wrong with exploring further "normal regular" parenting approaches. Right? So, maybe not so much of a practical difference anyway

Could it just be that school bores my kids?

Dunno, but I can tell you it bored the cr*p out of me most of the time!

I do not think it is necessarily an intelligence thing per se, btw, I think part of it is that if you are used to pursuing your own interests at home -- which by and large is a GOOD thing for kids to do, leads to learning how to learn, and independance, and all that -- then being told "ok we are going to look at pictures of what kids eat in Bolivia for the next fifteen minutes and then draw a picture about it" may be harder to fit in with your personal agenda at the moment

Could it be that having no TV, video games or other stuff like that, they have simply never learned to filter out other distractions? Could it be that my son's notoriously difficult classmates would be quite distracting to ANYbody?

Sounds quite plausible to me.

I can tell you that, having seen my son's Sr kindergarten classroom, I am astonished that ANYbody can focus on ANYthing for more than three seconds in there, it is jam-packed to the gills with the most amazing assortment of sights, colors, words, pictures, crafts, etc. I am a person who *likes* working in a cluttered environment, but it makes my brain hurt to walk into that room Possibly it is different for kids, I dunno, it's been too long since I was one, but it gives one to wonder.

Could it be that he is simply lazy about doing things that seem pointless (like your sister ) and I will just have to deal with the stress of forcing him through it anyway?

*I* am the lazy one, not my sister <vbg>, and yes, it is possible... *irrespective* of whether he has ADD/ADHD or not

I will mention that one thing that helped me get through school with grades sufficient to get into college and get on with my life was to make a game out of seeing how many stupid idiotic assignments I could do my own way. E.g. "Write a sentence for each of the following 20 vocabulary words" -- well, let me see if I can write a sentence for each that has to do with *horses* (speaking as a former 12 yr old girl <g>). The more you can find a point of personal interest or engagement with the task, the more incentive there is to stick with it. Obviously this works better for some things than others, but, still. Of course it ticks off some teachers too, but hey, that's just an added bonus <snort>

Some things, like going out and picking beans, or memorizing multiplication tables, just *are* hard to find personally-relevant reward in sometimes. For those, I think kids just have to learn that you gotta do a certain number of things in life that are not especially enjoyable but still have to be done or face the consequences. Dunno how to learn it other than to sometimes face the consequences

Good luck, have fun, I will be coming to *you* with questions when my 2 and 5 year olds hit those ages of course ,

Pat

 

[big brown horse]

I can tell you that, having seen my son's Sr kindergarten classroom, I am astonished that ANYbody can focus on ANYthing for more than three seconds in there, it is jam-packed to the gills with the most amazing assortment of sights, colors, words, pictures, crafts, etc. I am a person who *likes* working in a cluttered environment, but it makes my brain hurt to walk into that room Possibly it is different for kids, I dunno, it's been too long since I was one, but it gives one to wonder.

This is why a good quality Montessori School has minimal clutter on the shelves or on the walls. And loud noises are kept to a min.

 

[me&thegals]

I know you aren't try to confuse me, Pat. I'm just in a ping-pong game of fact-gathering info, and yours shot me right back to the other side That's good!

The stories about other kids' childhoods is perfect. I only know mine and my kids, for sure. As mentioned, at my kids' ages I don't get many chances any more to observe their friends' behavior at home. So, what is normal? I always assume MY kids are normal, whatever they're doing. Until teachers consistently comment otherwise. Then, I start having to question it when we head into the 3rd year of this. And, I consistently notice my kids in their classrooms being one of the few not paying attention a significant amount of the time.

Your point is right on, though, that either way I want to work on behavioral modifications. I guess it would just help me know that my kids are not oppositional. They are either completely normally distracted and interested kids or they struggle with distraction beyond other kids but with help will excel in spite of it. I guess it's all about perception and how it is framed.

As for school, I nearly choked on my toast over your example of the drawing in Bolivia thing. Last year, at conferences, my daughter's teacher used an example of her inability to focus by a piece of writing she had done. The assignment was to write a story about an imaginary turkey. My daughter wrote very little. I was thinking, No kidding! How much more dull can you get? This is not the only example of lack of focus, though. Some of them were pertinent to this discussion.

In my years helping in the classroom, I usually go home with a pounding headache, especially kindergarten. I don't know how ANY child can focus, since activities change literally every 15 min. If a child wants to focus longer and finish their task, too bad. It's on to the next thing. I felt a bit schizophrenic some days after being there ONE HOUR! And my kids are used to a fairly quiet, calm home and life. So, maybe that is it right there. Life is pretty even keel here. School is pretty darn interesting (at least the classmates, the turkeys outside the window, the pictures on the wall). Well, maybe that is it.

As for dull chores, I figure that is just part of life. I don't find my medical transcription fascinating after 10 years, but it helps the family, lets me be at home and gets us insurance. Now, when I can be doing the jobs with them, we do things like play 20 questions. Sometimes they have to do a job alone. And they always have consequences for not doing jobs in a reasonable amount of time (I don't consider 2 hours for 1 gallon of beans reasonable :/), but some days it feels like 1 job leads to consequence #1, then cons. #2, then cons.#3, etc. I run out of creative ways to get them focused on a job besides holding hands and doing it together. Especially now that they are 7 and 9. Younger kids, definitely I was there with them. Older kids? I dunno.

Does anybody here have a great sense of what a parent could generally expect for time management and organizational skills for 7 and 9 year olds?

 

[Farmfresh]

Just my little bit of input.

I worked with behavior disordered children for 9 years (well actually 15, but ADD/ ADHD for 9)

It IS REAL people! It is biochemical.

I have seen children that are so distracted by the sound of a florescent light bulb they just about come out of their skin. I have seen children that wiggle and jiggle and twitch. I have seen children so distracted they could not follow a complete sentence.

These are usually very bright kids. They can be tremendously successful people when given appropriate strategies. They sometimes get in A LOT of trouble due to their impulsivity.

Meds do help - correction the right meds .. in the right amounts .. for the right kid.

Now to be QUITE realistic. Nutrition would be the place to start. I would not doubt that some ADD/ADHD is like an allergic reaction to something. I would probably do an elimination type of diet to see what has the most effect.

Stress aggravates the problem. And often it is a vicious circle. They are bouncing off the walls so they make a mess - then they get into trouble - then they get nervous then they bounce off the walls more - then they make a mess.....

Children (and adults) with the disorder need tight structure and plenty of grace. They need to feel they are loved - no matter HOW distracted they are. Plenty of love and security tends to lower stress and lesson symptoms.

Now for my personal opinion (and one I am sure will NOT be popular with many).

In my experience almost every (if not EVERY) true ADHD child I have met has one or both of the two following factors involved:

1. a parent with severe ADD/ADHD

or

2. a mother that has been a marijuana smoker before pregnancy (not necessarily during or even right before the pregnancy - remember all of the woman's eggs that she ever will have are present when she is BORN).

It is my personal belief that pot does something to those eggs. I can't tell you what and I have NEVER heard of a medical study in regards to it. The father smoking does not seem to make a difference.

 

[Beekissed]

I will tell you what I did about the getting the child to do classwork and homework, but this may not work for all folks...understandably. I noticed early on that the teachers were having trouble getting Jon to focus and do classroom work. He is brilliant and can not pay attention to ANYTHING and gets all A's on tests that are given.

Unfortunately, the little rat learned this early on also..... I will tell you, gals...the boy is so lazy about work that I have to pump his lungs in and out to make him breath! So, he does not work except taking tests and this has passed him right along the public school system... isn't that great (sense the ironic tone?)

After years of obsessing over this, having teacher/parent conferences, etc. we came to this conclusion:

He is not going to do the work unless someone stands over him ever minute and reminds him constantly to "get busy".

The teacher cannot feasibly do this....nor would they let me come to his classroom to do this(I asked!)

The loss of privileges such as recess or home privileges such as TV, games, events means nothing to these children....they purely live in the moment and cannot see further than that.

Likewise, positive reinforcement yields the same results.....they cannot focus long enough to do the tasks to earn rewards.

Homeschooling created the environment necessary to help this child and he really LIKED learning at home....it was his style and he eagerly devoured the material...on his own terms. And I was happy with this. But my jobs demanded more time and I could not do the homeschooling option anymore.....

After years of crying, punishing(paddlings, switchings do not motivate these children either...at least it didn't mine) setting up reward systems, dealing with the school thinking I'm a disinterested parent, etc. I decided I won't survive this child's schooling....I really won't....

I changed. He didn't, but I did. Along about 7th grade I realized something. Nothing I did mattered. Nothing had worked. The turning point was when he lied to me once again about what to expect on his report card and I went crazy mode.

Then I dropped to my knees and turned it all over to God and I have been at peace since then.

I told Jon that he was old enough to reap the consequences of his actions and that I no longer cared what grades he made. Since that day I have explained to teachers right up front what they are dealing with and invited them to do whatever they wished about grade performance....because I don't really get involved anymore. No meetings...I won't come. It's not that I don't care, it's that I can not change things.

Jon was puzzled and didn't really believe me, but as time has gone on, he has learned that I really and truly do not want to know about his grades. You see, he is not unruly in school and has no behavioral problems....he just doesn't want to do the work. I know he is intelligent, so I don't need proof that he is learning...the tests all show 99th percentile.

What was I trying to prove? That I was a good parent? That I was managing this child? Beating my head against this wall wasn't proving anything and it was killing me. It didn't affect Jon whatsoever!

I warned him that a consistent low grade point average will eventually hurt his chances for college and he stated he wasn't interested in college and, if he was, he would test into it..... Now he is interested in college...go figure!

Which is fine with me! I haven't seen a report card, unless by accident, for about 4 years now and it's pure BLISS!

Whether he passes or fails, does or does not graduate, is no matter to me. It's no reflection on his intelligence (just poor judgement) nor is it a reflection on my parenting. It just means this child will reap the consequences of his own actions, which is exactly what life is all about. No one can protect you from yourself except God and you.

I have been quite happy since letting God handle things and I can rest assured Jon is in good hands. We tease Jon about graduating at the age of 40 but, so far, he is on track to graduate appropriately. He is currently running for student body president (surprise!) and is taking classes for college preparation (his choice) and I DO NOT KNOW WHAT HIS GRADES ARE! Hallelujah!!!!

 

[Farmfresh]

I will tell you, gals...the boy is so lazy about work that I have to pump his lungs in and out to make him breath!

I think in a lot of ways you have hit the nail on the head Bee! At least for those older kids that can behave in school (called ADD with no H).

My son is not ADD, but he is as lazy as the one you described above about work - unless it is something HE WANTS to do. My GEEK son did not turn in work, he sometimes even REFUSED to take tests! He has a gifted IQ and dysgraphia (which is dyslexia's evil twin - info can go it but not out! Reading is no problem ... writing is a trial! Keyboarding is easy .. go figure).

I nearly killed the child (not literally) and myself (also not literally) trying to turn my little punkin into an apple for the teacher. All it caused was stress and pain to all concerned. Finally I turned my focus more on helping the teacher. Helping the teacher to simply cope!

Teachers WANT to teach (at least most of them). They have a hard time knowing what to do with a child that does not leap through those conventional hoops. They get no work so they feel they have nothing to grade. How will they know they are succeeding? !!

I tried to explain how he thinks, how he works, and that I don't think they are horrible people if he doesn't turn in his work ... as long as they don't think I AM a horrible parent just because my kid won't do his worksheets. If they need to test him and can flex enough to give him a scribe or do his tests orally he will make their grade.

Basically he lived too. He went to vo-tech and learned computers (which is what HE wants to do). Now he has made a good living doing just that.

 

[TanksHill]

Farm Fresh you made some very good points.


"Now to be QUITE realistic. Nutrition would be the place to start. I would not doubt that some ADD/ADHD is like an allergic reaction to something. I would probably do an elimination type of diet to see what has the most effect.

Stress aggravates the problem. And often it is a vicious circle. They are bouncing off the walls so they make a mess - then they get into trouble - then they get nervous then they bounce off the walls more - then they make a mess.....

Children (and adults) with the disorder need tight structure and plenty of grace. They need to feel they are loved - no matter HOW distracted they are. Plenty of love and security tends to lower stress and lesson symptoms. "

My son accomplishes much more when I just have the laxa-daisy attitude. It makes him more relaxed and stress free. We both have an easier time with our task. He has never been diagnosed with anything. But I feel a sense of calm and stress free environment would help anyone trying to learn something new.

The pot smoking thing I find interesting. But I would almost go one step further and say there are many drugs, prescriptions, and chemicals in our environments that I believe affect our body's. Weather we know it or not. I fear some day they will make a list of all things we thought safe and most of us will be in trouble.