Moved away from Mainstream (medicine)

[patandchickens]

I am mostly going to stay out of this as a lot of things have been merrily stated as "facts" here with "documentation" that turns out to be false or out of date.

However, I would like to just point something out:

Vaccines are BY NO MEANS the only way we take in mercury and other heavy metals. My gosh, there are all sorts of food-based and environmental exposures to them that have increased radically over the past thirty forty years (matching the rise in autism diagnoses - which btw you can probably chalk *some* of that rise up to changes in diagnosis rates, but not *all* of it).

Vaccines are of course more under our control than some (not all) other things... but OTOH some of them do have pretty darn useful effects e.g. the polio vaccine, and I do not think it is wise to just dismiss the whole category on some basically non evidence based notion that it is The, or even The Biggest, cause of autism.

Note that when people look for differences in autism rates between vaccinated and unvaccinated populations, they seldom find 'em. This would suggest to me that while I think the jury is still out on whether vaccines may have *some* affect on autism rates, they do not seem to come close to accounting for the great increase that has occurred.

It does not have to be all or nothing, do vaccines cause autism or are they harmless, should I get every vaccine my insurance will pay for or shall I get none of them.

And haughty language implying that people who disagree with you (either position) are being intentionally cavalier about their childrens' health as if they're, like, doing a Michael Jackson 'dangle the baby out the window as a joke' thing, does NOT AT ALL seem to me to be warranted :/

Shutting back up now,

Pat

 

[me&thegals]

Like Scott, I have tremendous respect for some doctors. Some that I work for seem to write out Rx without a thought, but others work hard to find non-drug remedies, etc. Don't paint an entire profession with the same brush.

I just think that doctors are working in an industry that gives them lots of information on some things--drugs, vaccinations--and incredibly little research on other things--alternative treatments, effects of nonvaccination.

We on this thread all seem to have kids and all doing our best to protect them. Some are trying to protect their kids from the ill effects of vaccinations, some from the effects of disease. If we have people in our life who have suffered from possible effects of immunizations, then obviously we see that viewpoint much more clearly. But, others have immunocompromised friends and family and wouldn't think of possibly exposing them to a disease that could kill them. Obviously, they see things more strongly from that viewpoint.

Just putting in my 2 cents

 

[Quail_Antwerp]

Ok, once again I have not read all the posts, I mean, I missed out yesterday and 7 pages WOW lol

I have 5 children. All except my 10 week old have been vaccinated. My husband gets mad at the pediatricians because he thinks they make the appts just to line their own pockets. Tell me why the doctor needs to see them once a month to every 2 weeks if they are healthy???

My oldest is 9. When I had her I was the "good" mommy and got her the vaccinations right on schedule. She had so many fevers, asthma attacks, ear infections that first year it wasn't funny.

When I had my son, my daughter was 2, and I refused to get him vaccinated. I was upset when I found out the hospital had given him hep vaccine at birth. I was so mad! They hadn't even asked me first. It was then I decided we vaccinate waaaaaaaaaay to young. So I didn't get my son any vaccinations until he was 15 months old. He never got sick once that first year. The pediatrician reamed me infront of the entire waiting room for not having vaccinated him earlier.

My next two boys were all vaccinated up until 2 years of age so I wouldn't have to hear the dr yell at me.

My youngest is 10 weeks and I do not plan on having him vaccinated. Since I do homeschool I do not see this being an issue. My 5 year old will not be getting the kindergarten shot and my 3 year old has not been vaccinated since 2007, not sure what his last shot was.

 

[the simple life]

How come the Amish do not have any autism in their communities? As a rule they do not vaccinate, yet they live on the same planet as us and absorb the same kind of environmental toxins that we do.

As far as the mercury being the only thing in the vaccines that is suspected to cause autism spectrum disorders and immune disorders, that is not the case here.
Just because the mercury was removed from some of the vaccines does not mean this aggressive vaccine schedule that has been implemented is not risky.
There are too many viruses and other toxins in these vaccines and are given at too young of an age in too high of amounts.
The viruses and toxins bombarding the children are causing immune system disorders as well as ASD.

As for heavy metals being in the world, yes.
As for injecting a day old baby with it No.
That is the difference here, you would hope that by the time a child is old enough to even being eating foods that had this kind of stuff in it, they would already had a chance to develop their immune systems.
The food in this world my not be the most wholesome, but
I also don't know when any other time my child would be injesting anitfreeze or cow heart or aborted fetal tissue.
In what way would they be exposed to that food based or enviromentally in their daily life?

I will stand by my opinion.
Too many vaccines , too young , with too many dangerous substances in them.
Clean em up , pare em down and spread em out.

 

[the simple life]

That guardisal vaccine wasn't even vigorously tested and there have been alarming reports about girls recieving it and having ill effects, sometimes right there in the doctor's office.
They are actually pressuring girls to get it, my daughter knows the deal and refused it at her last physical.
The nurse kept saying everybody gets it, the insurance will pay for it.
She was like, do you want to talk to my mom?
Of course not, they know better.

Now, I heard that if you piss off Ann she will invite you over to get stung by bees.Or dig holes in her yard
Not sure how true that is but.......

I hate that, the pressure on a teen - I'd surely YELL at them for that. they're using the kids as guinea pigs. Just a matter of time before boys get in on that deal.
Be sure to ask the NURSE if she's had her shot. and while you're at it ask the doctor if he's up to date on his.

The problem with that vaccine like so many others is that is wasn't ready to be marketed yet.
While the premise is always a good one, prevent some kind of disease and I do believe that its been proven that these viruses can cause cancer, it just wasn't ready yet.
There were more than one makers racing to get theirs on the market, so they put it out as quickly as they could and are trying to tweak it now.
Put it out there and make changes later is the way it was with this vaccine.
That is the reason my kids did not get it.
I have a huge problem with the aggressive campaigns they put forth to vaccinate every girl for this.
The age recommendation gets younger and younger.
Pretty soon they will tell you that you can't enter kindergarten without it, just like the hepatitis shot.
Both of which children would not need to be vaccinated for.
If its not for the money, then I don't know what its for.

 

[ScottyG]

Again, you avoid the whole topic of all the other neurotoxins in the vaccines.
Aluminum, lead, cadmium, antifreeze etc.
You are so focused on the mercury you cannot see the forest through the trees.
If you read the Simpsonwood Minutes which is a group of PEERs doctors, sitting around a table discussing the current vaccine schedule and its ingredients.
There was absolute great concern about the aluminum and everything else in the vaccines.
One doctor even did a study himself where he felt the younger the child given the vaccines the worse off they were.
He said there were alot less problems with speech and other developmental issues in the people that vaccinated their children later, after their immune system had matured.

There was also a doctor on that panel that was expecting his first grandchild, he stated in front of all that he would sign the vaccine schedule but he would never let his own grandchild recieve those very same vaccines, he felt they were unsafe.

The reason I keep coming back to the mercury is because all of the convincing research on the dangers of vaccines is about the mercury. Your chart about the parallels between mercury poisoning and autism? Mercury. I did read the Simpsonwood Minutes, and found it fascinating, chilling reading. But the Simpsonwood Minutes are a meeting specifically about the problems with thimerosal, and every single one the quotes listed on the page you posted here are either about thimerosal or about problems with other things (aluminum, for instance) interacting with the thimerosal.

And again, I followed my trusted doctor's recommended vaccination schedule, and all of the vaccines my daughter received are listed as thimerosal-free. So I understand the nervousness about vaccines... it really sucks to watch your child get poked with needles, it truly does. But if you're wondering why I'm focused on the mercury, it's because I've yet to see any convincing argument about the problems with vaccines that isn't about the mercury, which my daughter's regular vaccine schedule did not contain.

Even the "Vaccine Court" you mentioned earlier has indeed given payouts recently, to people who developed Autism spectrum disorders after a latent gene was activated by the thimerosal. Horrible, horrible stuff, and I'm so glad the government has done something about it. I wish they'd done more and taken it out of ALL vaccines, but at least they took it out of all the ones my baby's been inoculated with.

 

[ScottyG]

Also, here's an excellent article by a doctor who works in an Amish community, and vaccinates Amish people all the time, and also personally knows autistic Amish people.

http://combatingautismfromwithin.blogspot.com/2008/01/guess-what-amish-vaccinate.html

 

[the simple life]

The Amish only recently started vaccinating.
As far as your daughter only getting these "safe" vaccines, she is not done yet.
The tetanus shot contains mercury.
As for the amount these vaccines contain, it doesn't matter.
Any amount of mercury given in conjuction with live viruses that burden your immune system is going to have a negative impact.
You talk about tuna containing mercury, well is your daughter taking a live virus into her bloodstream while eating this said tuna?
As far as all the vaccines you gave your daughter being safe remains to be seen.
The children that are recieving todays vaccine schedule are not old enough yet to see the affects.
The asthma, allergies etc.

AGAIN, in case it has not been clear enough. My issue with the vaccines is the additives and the aggressive schedule.
Children do not need 36 vaccines, they do not need them as young as they are recieving them and they do not need the additives.

 

[patandchickens]

How come the Amish do not have any autism in their communities? As a rule they do not vaccinate, yet they live on the same planet as us and absorb the same kind of environmental toxins that we do.

a) yes, they do seem to have autism, tho the rate may be lower.

b) they do NOT necessarily absorb the same environmental toxins that we do. Not at all. They eat different things than the typical American diet, grown on different-treated soil, they do not live in an immediate environment splashed all 'round with the kinds of pesticides and other chemical products that the rest of the Western World has been so fond of using, they do not have discarded electronics and a buncha other stuff like that junking up their environment, etc etc.

BTW I wholeheartedly agree that TOO MANY vaccines are given -- I don't think there is good rationale/evidence for vaccinating against every ol' thing for which a vaccine is available for.

Pat

 

[reinbeau]

I think before this gets even more heated (my tea is starting to boil in front of the monitor) we need to take a few steps back and see that many here are agreeing with each other to varying degrees.

I personally think vaccines are important. My problem with them is the aggressive schedule - they hammer on the child's immune system much harder (faster) than they did when I was young. I think that is the key. The brain isn't fully developed, as we've come to realize, until the early 20's! It seems as though pushing the immune system so young is what's causing the problems. I'll stand by that. The immunology schedules followed in Europe are far less aggressive, and they have something like one tenth the cases of autism. There's something going on there. And it isn't just autism. The exponential increase in asthma is cause for concern. There are other issues, too. Instead of worrying about how much the pharmaceutical CEO's are making people need to worry about the future CEO's, those who are infants now....

However, ultimately, it should be up to the parent, although the basics, DPT, I think, do need to be covered. Just not so young and not so fast.

No one here should leave this discussion feeling as though they have been criticized for their thoughtful approach to rearing their children.