Obama finally called them out

[FarmerChick]

edited to remove previously edited material

You sound like an Obama basher. That is all I see. And when someone is dead set on bashing, then they can never see any good from any situation where "this person" is concerned.

No our Pres. is not lying to us. He is doing the best plan he can, hoping that what the plan entails works out. He is not LYING to your face as with the death panel sitatuion.

Seeing what the plan holds is key.

EVERY Pres. twists the truth on every subject, as does EVERY polititican from your county seats to your congress to your senate to YOU and your neighbor and your mom and dad and me and my family. No a person in this world does not twist things at some point to get their point across. Take on healthcare and see how easy it would be? Take on a dying nation who deserves better and try to tell every person, it is OK, it won't effect you, it won't bother you, it won't make you angry, it won't inconvenience you---it can't happen.

We need to keep this all on the level it is intended.

The Pres. is trying to put health care reform on the table. Nothing is set in stone. Negotitations are happening now.....so we have to wait and see what is offered.

Do you think that throwing out Death Panels is not a lie?
Not a blatant lie?
That we will have panels set up to specifically decide exact people to kill off early....like a Hitler situation.

No I can't go there.....it is just wrong and wrong for anyone to defend it!!

 

[reinbeau]

Shading the truth is no better than lying, and allowing politicians to lie is just plain wrong. I can't accept that it's acceptable to anyone! We need honesty on all levels in government, of course that's a pipe dream, because it isn't about us, it's about power.

As for waiting to see what's offered us, it won't be offered to us, it'll be crammed down our throats, unread, the same way that the TARP bill was handled. This rotten political process has got to stop.

 

[FarmerChick]

SKR
I know it happened in history already but it was nothing as GLOBAL elimination that the world has agreed upon.
I mean, will it ever come to a page of:
Baby--born with this defect, eliminate.
Age 40--times over...you lived, prospered, contributed to the nation to survive, time to go on your birthday, cause gotta make room for others now to live.

(you know almost that science fiction movie situation)---and that was an off topic just is scary thought I threw out.



Your insurance company does that to you right now. All medical plans are limited usually to some point. The govt. would not effect this to the level you make it out to be.....again, overblown scare tactics.

 

[reinbeau]

I hope your trust in them isn't wasted, Karen. Did you read my post #60? I'm interested in your thoughts.

 

[patandchickens]

everyone pays on the tax part.....signed up or not signed up.

If not signed up.....where do you get heath care then?

Oh, yes, I forgot to say -- you can pay cash on the barrelhead at OHIP doctors/clinics/hospitals if you are not covered. This could be either literally 'pay cash' or if you have some form of insurance from another country that would pay.

For instance, most of the first year I lived up here, I was not eligible for OHIP as my immigration application was still being progressed. I paid, I forget, a hundred something per month to some US outfit for expatriate health insurance, which would have covered some of any very high bills for like being in a car accident or such (so if I had been, part of my bills here in ONtario would have been paid by them); but for things not covered by that expat insurance, like pregnancy or preexisting conditions or anything below the rather high deductable or over the rather low maximum :>, I would have been liable for paying the bill personally to OHIP.

And the OHIP stopped all clinics from treating their covered procedures etc. and that means they automatically kill any private competition? Yea that seems controversial to me too.

In trying to answer this and your previous post, I realized I really do not understand the situation clearly so I did some reading online, and it *seems* to be something like this (note that some significant points in my earlier post on the subject are incorrect):

There *are* apparently private clinics in ON that do specialty procedures such as hip replacements etc. They are cash-on-barrelhead.

What's controversial is whether people should be allowed to go there and have OHIP pay for it (at OHIPs own fee schedule, which the clinics would have to accept if they wanna have OHIP-paid patients).

In this respect it would be similar to HMO type arrangements in the states (I am not sure I mean HMO specifically, but the following will sound familiar to you) where patients choose between having stuff done by the plan's own doctors or by other nonplan doctors as long as the latter are willing to accept the fee structure. EXCEPT, what's being discussed here is not at the individual doctor level, it is at the clinic level.

The main (least bogus-sounding to me, and also least trivial nitpicky) argument against this seems to be that the sensible thing for such private clinics to do would be to "cherry-pick" the easiest cases, within any given type of treatment (presumably by turning down more complex ones), thereby increasing the average difficulty/expense of what's done at OHIP facilities and thus overburdening OHIP financially. OHIP further takes the position that patients are better off having stuff done at large multitask clinics/hospitals (such as OHIP runs) rather than at specialty clinics that may be less well equipped to deal with complications.

Furthermore, it is argued, perhaps correctly, I dunno, that this would be the 'camels nose in the tent' with respect to gradually gutting OHIP by reducing what's covered, which at present is really pretty comprehensive but has already been reduced in recent years in some significant ways (chiropractic and nonmedical eye exams, for instance, were delisted a coupla years ago)

Here are two articles with a general overview (I don't know much about the source of it, but it seems to paint a pretty accurate and not especially biased picture, although wait times for some key diagnostics/procedures HAVE in fact been brought down significantly in many places in the last coupla years, due to public outcry):

http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Medicare_Canada_-_Opinions_on_medicare/id/1756162
http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/Medicare_Canada_-_Proposed_reforms/id/1756163

BTW I am glad you asked these questions as in trying to answer them I have learned some useful things myself


Pat

 

[FarmerChick]

Ann that is not what they are saying at all.

You are throwing 2 things together.

This is end of life counseling---IS WHAT you want. When you decide. No one will decide it for you!

Then---no the gov. is not going to pick an age and say treatment is over.



My--the scare over this is unreal.

Canada has many controls on their medical system.
Do you see anywhere in their media that their govt. is killing off people left and right and denying coverage because of age or illness....NO---because it doesn't happen and it won't happen here.
AS DOES many other nations----do you see this happening anywhere??

It will not make everyone---age 64 and over.....who has breast cancer for 2 years--and aren't getting better---oh lets kill them---by denying coverage if they still want to live and fight for their life.

(I don't know how these things get to this level of ignorance)





and I don't mean ignorance of a person---I mean the ignorance of the info out there that can get so twisted.

Believe me the govt. is not out to kill the nation.

Insurance limits and denys coverage and procedures now....it is no different.

 

[FarmerChick]

I hope your trust in them isn't wasted, Karen. Did you read my post #60? I'm interested in your thoughts.

Hey Ann
not a chance to google him yet.
Gotta get going in a sec. to hit the road and got tons of things to do today in a minute....gotta get ready for market tomorrow! Out to the fields I go...hey I am white, female and work the fields here..HA HA HA

I will read about him and will get back to you on him.

 

[reinbeau]

Ann that is not what they are saying at all.

You are throwing 2 things together.

This is end of life counseling---IS WHAT you want. When you decide. No one will decide it for you!

Then---no the gov. is not going to pick an age and say treatment is over.



My--the scare over this is unreal.

Canada has many controls on their medical system.
Do you see anywhere in their media that their govt. is killing off people left and right and denying coverage because of age or illness....NO---because it doesn't happen and it won't happen here.
AS DOES many other nations----do you see this happening anywhere??

It will not make everyone---age 64 and over.....who has breast cancer for 2 years--and aren't getting better---oh lets kill them---by denying coverage if they still want to live and fight for their life.

(I don't know how these things get to this level of ignorance)





and I don't mean ignorance of a person---I mean the ignorance of the info out there that can get so twisted.

Believe me the govt. is not out to kill the nation.

Insurance limits and denys coverage and procedures now....it is no different.

No one ever said the government was out to kill the nation, so twisting isn't all one-sided. But managed care most definitely does lead to decisions as I've laid out, if you think for one minute it doesn't, then enjoy the government's plan, and don't be surprised when it happens to someone you know. I like our system the way it is, right now. I don't want Canada's, or Great Britain's. Fix what we have and keep people living.

 

[andehens]

I just googled Ezekill Emanuel, OMG, scary! Everyone should be aware of his thought process and his position as advisor.
I worry that the same government that its ok to export our good jobs over seas, and to import goods and foods that are contaminated with poisons is the same government that will manage our healthcare.

 

[Big Daddy]

We currently have a ratio of over 400 people per doctor here in the US. Other first world nations have a much lower ratio of patients to doctors. Most are around 300 patients per doctor or less. y do.

The reason we have less doctors is because other civilized countries pay or the higher education of their citizens. We have plenty of specialist doctors. Reason being that they make a lot more than GP's. If there is a shortage it will be in GP's. GP's don't make enough to pay the huge debts incurred while getting a medical degree. That could be handled by subsidizing education. That is the next issue that needs to be addressed to bring our country up to par with the rest of the civilized countries. It's a shame how many brilliant minds go to waste because they are born in to families that can't afford to send them to college for 8 years. Please save all the comments about the tons of scholarships and how anybody can go to college for free if they really want to. It's time for the US to stop it's slide in to mediocrity. If things don't change we will be just another failure in the history books of the future.